Ashton Lattimore joins us to discuss Runner, her soapy, escapist historical adventure set on Prohibition-era Martha’s Vineyard, where secrets, danger, and ambition collide.
Ashton Lattimore joins us to discuss Runner, her soapy, escapist historical adventure set on Prohibition-era Martha’s Vineyard, where secrets, danger, and ambition collide.
This week on Book Gang, I’m joined by Ashton Lattimore, whose new novel Runner is a standout historical adventure that brings Prohibition-era Martha’s Vineyard to life. Ashton shares the real-life shipwreck that planted the seed for her story, the meticulous research behind her 1920s language and setting, and how she balances soapy drama with hard-hitting history. If you love novels where you learn something new while being swept away by twists and secrets, this episode is for you.
In this week’s episode, we discuss:
📚 Language, Landmarks, and Lingo: How do you make the Roaring Twenties feel brand new? Ashton shares her process of resurrecting the era with vivid period language, historical landmarks, and the daily rituals that anchor her characters in time and place. Ashton shares her tricks for finding the right word, her favorite hidden gems from the era, and why slipping in “old-timey” lingo and fun facts is more than historical window dressing.
📚 The Real Black History Behind Runner: Discover how a mysterious 1923 shipwreck off Martha’s Vineyard inspired Ashton Lattimore’s riveting tale. Ashton takes us into the island's lesser-known Black maritime history, revealing a world where whalers, fishermen, and smugglers navigated not just the perils of the sea, but also racial boundaries, discrimination, and the urgent need for community survival.
📚 Class, Crime, and Complicated Women: Runner is more than a story about rumrunners—it’s a sharp exploration of class, crime, and what it took for Black women to survive and thrive in the 1920s. We dig into the novel’s rich cast: from Lena, risking everything to save her family, to Dee, balancing privilege and vulnerability, to matriarchs wrestling with their own choices and regrets. Ashton opens up about navigating the tensions between Boston’s Black elite and the working-class locals.
FREE BONUS BOOK LIST: This week’s bonus book list isUncorking 18 Prohibition Books— A Toast to Bookish Bathtub Gin—books full of secrets, danger, and unforgettable characters chasing dreams in the Roaring Twenties. Patrons of the show will receive a printable checklist to take to their local library and a bonus spoiler episode with Ashton Lattimore.
Meet Ashton Lattimore
Ashton Lattimore is an award-winning author, journalist, and former lawyer. Her debut novel, All We Were Promised, was a Book of the Month Club pick, a Washington Post and NPR Best Book of 2024, and one of People magazine’s Best New Books for April 2024. Lattimore also received the First Novelist Award from the Black Caucus of the American Library Association. Her nonfiction writing has appeared in The Washington Post, Prism, The Preamble, Slate, CNN, Essence, and elsewhere. She’s a native of New Jersey, where she lives with her husband and two sons.
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Runner by Ashton Lattimore
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Book Gang Podcast Transcript:
Ashton Lattimore (00:00)
Hi, my name's Ashton Lattimore and I'm a historical fiction author and my newest novel is Runner.
Amy’s Warm Introduction: Hey Book Gang! Ashton Lattimore’s novel, Runner, was an unexpected standout in my reading life this summer—a soapy, escapist historical adventure that captivated me from the very first page. Though I missed including it in our Summer Reading Guide, I’m delighted it found its way onto my fall list, joining my favorite “spillover” reads of the season.
Set against the backdrop of Prohibition-era Martha’s Vineyard, this new novel artfully explores the Black experience on the island, examining both the Black Elite and working-class communities through the eyes of two young women whose fates become unexpectedly intertwined.
From the opening lines, Ashton’s storytelling pulls you in: “The house had space enough to hide things. Whether that was the cottage’s finest quality or its most scandalous flaw was a question for another season. But with the late spring sunlight peeking into every crevice, lighting up the shadowy corners, Lena Jameson had only one question: where had her father hidden the hooch?”
When the sea claims Lena’s father—a beloved fisherman turned rumrunner—her world shatters. Her father’s ship, the Honeysuckle, was wrecked in Buzzards Bay, breaking apart as though it hit something sinister. The crew of six men vanished, and only three broken bodies were found floating in life jackets, but they are assured people will start washing ashore. Earl, a complicated father, is mourned soon after at his funeral by the Reverend, who offers to the reader this juicy tidbit: “He wasn’t perfect—no man is. But for all the joy he brought to Oak Bluffs, and all the good he did for this church, even as godly people we can forgive him his… little indulgences.”
It’s the little indulgences that start to unspool, but Lena has no time to dwell; she discovers her family is behind on their mortgage, owing back taxes that threaten to take everything. They are no stranger to the feast and famine of Earl’s world—his returns not always bringing funds for them and his returning presence like “an oversized, misshapen piece of furniture forced into the center of the home, tiptoed around and catered to, until finally he went away again.”
Desperate to save her family and carve out a future on her own terms, Lena seizes the wheel of her father’s illicit business. She assembles a crew as mismatched as her situation: Walter, her reckless brother whose volatility is both weapon and risk; Sam, her steadfast anchor who might keep her grounded or hold her back; and Dee, a glamorous outsider whose secrets and ambitions mirror Lena’s own hunger for more.
Dee’s privilege may set her apart from Lena, but it comes with its own burdens. Beneath the surface of her wealth lies the constant pressure to live up to her mother’s expectations—and a secret passion that could cost her everything.
From the salt-tinged air and moonlit docks of Oak Bluffs to Harlem’s velvet-lit jazz clubs, Lena and Dee’s journey crackles with risk and revelation as they try to sustain Earl’s risky business. The law is closing in, rivals lurk in the shadows, and every choice could cost these women everything they love. As buried truths rise to the surface, Lena must decide just how far she’ll go—for her family, her dreams, and a life she can truly call her own.
As is so often the case, books that go down easy for readers require tremendous effort behind the scenes, and that is what we'll discuss with Ashton today. Researching the lives of people whose work depended on secrecy posed unique challenges, and her creative research methods—including combing through meeting minutes from Christian organizations that campaigned against liquor—add fascinating depth to the story behind the story. What I believe she hopes readers carry with them isn’t just the thrill of escape, but a real sense of the peril everyone faced in this era.
If you grew up captivated by soap operas, you’ll find the same irresistible twists, secrets, and emotional stakes woven throughout this story—only here, every page delivers a deeper understanding of Black history that will make you the star at any dinner party with fun trivia. I was mesmerized.
If you’re new here, hi! I’m Amy Allen Clark, the voice behind the Book Gang podcast, and I’m so happy to have you here. This space is dedicated to debuts, backlist favorites, and under-the-radar gems.
A quick reminder! Next week we’re celebrating Those We Thought We Knew with David Joy. If you missed David Joy’s podcast, now’s the time to catch up—this is hands-down one of the best conversations I’ve ever recorded, as we dig into this powerful, racially charged murder mystery and the real-life advocacy David’s leading in his Appalachian town. We’ll be discussing this backlist book together on September 24th at 8 PM ET, and you don’t want to miss it. And—our Classics Club is officially underway! We’re reading Jane Eyre together and moving into Section Two—Chapters 14–26. Mark your calendars: our next discussion is on October 22nd at 8 PM ET. Membership is just $5 a month (or save 10% when you prepay for the year). Every member keeps this podcast independent and commercial-free.
To celebrate this week’s podcast, you’ll also find a free bonus book list to browse packed with Prohibition-era novels—these unique historical escapes will transport you straight to the heart of the Roaring Twenties. Patrons of the show will receive a bonus spoiler chat with Ashton and a printable book list to take to the library.
Now, let’s meet today’s guest: Ashton Lattimore is an award-winning author, journalist, and former lawyer. Her debut novel, All We Were Promised, was a Book of the Month Club pick, a Washington Post and NPR Best Book of 2024, and one of People magazine’s Best New Books for April 2024. Lattimore also received the First Novelist Award from the Black Caucus of the American Library Association. Her nonfiction writing has appeared in The Washington Post, Prism, The Preamble, Slate, CNN, Essence, and elsewhere. She’s a native of New Jersey, where she lives with her husband and two sons.
If you’re enjoying the show, leaving a quick review on iTunes is one of the best ways to help others discover Book Gang—it’s free and means so much to us. And to our wonderful patrons, you’re the real bootleggers of joy around here! Thank you for supporting human creators in a world turned upside down by AI.
Now, let’s get chatting!
(transition music)
Book Gang- Amy (00:06)
Ashton, I am so happy to welcome you here to Book Gang. I missed your debut, but I am so excited that I get to celebrate your sophomore book. And now I have also found a great new author to latch onto. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Ashton Lattimore (00:20)
Thank you so much for having me, Amy, I appreciate it.
Book Gang- Amy (00:23)
Well, I have to ask, even though I'm not a drinker, I am curious, have your rum habits changed since writing this book?
Ashton Lattimore (00:32)
I am more of a gin drinker, personally. It feels like blasphemy to say that given the topic of the book, but no. You know, every so often I'll like see an interesting little rum cocktail and I'll think, you know, maybe. But I have a go to, which is a French 75, and I just kind of I stick to it. So yeah, I'm I'm a gin girly, actually.
Book Gang- Amy (00:53)
Well I was like I don't drink but maybe there's people who are listening that are big rum drinkers and I figured you would be the go-to source. So thanks for letting us know about your other drink though, I appreciate that
Ashton Lattimore (01:03)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (01:06)
I'm really excited to get into this journey of course my first question is you know segueing from your debut into this topic what were the seeds for this story
Ashton Lattimore (01:17)
So this story actually the idea for it came many years before I wrote my debut. I was on a trip to Martha's Vineyard with a friend and my husband, and we were at the museum, the Martha's Vineyard Museum, and there was this display about prohibition in Martha's Vineyard, and there was the shipwreck that there was a specific exhibit about called the John Dwight, which sank in 1923. And the Coast Guard discovers this sunken ship. There are barrels of ale floating in the wreckage, and the whole crew is dead, and the captains have disappeared and the lifeboats are gone. So it's this big mystery.
It was big enough of a mystery to make the New York Times, like several stories actually in the times where people were covering, you know, this weird thing that's happening up in Vineyard Sound. And just reading about that at the museum, and also having the additional context of the black history of the island. just kind of came together in my mind and, you know, percolated for many years and and eventually turned into Runner
Book Gang- Amy (02:15)
Well, I love it. I was not expecting anything like what I got into. You know, I got pitched this book, opened it up, and you know, I think I told you on your Instagram account that this was the kind of book where you're accidentally learning stuff, that you're like swept away into this very like soapy drama. And that is the best kind of historical fiction, especially in the summertime where I've come away with like lots of fun facts, but also just had a really good time while I was reading.
Ashton Lattimore (02:42)
That's what I wanted. I love that you called it a soapy drama. That's my favorite. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (02:46)
Yeah, it is.
Ashton Lattimore (02:47)
I grew up watching General Hospital, All My Children, One Life to Live. And I think people who watch those kinds of things and read this will absolutely learn something, but they will see the fingerprints of all of that kind of drama in this book. So
Book Gang- Amy (03:00)
Well, you're on a different track with your soap operas because I was definitely a Days of Our Lives girl. And even like my great-grandmother would watch it and she had a little black and white TV, and it was we had like four channels on it, but we would all sit down and everyone had to respect that time. It did not matter what happened. So I can see the threads of that.
I loved all the little plot twists that you put in there. You know, we have a villain, lots of fun stuff that reminds me of some of those summers with my great-grandma. So I love it. I think that's amazing.
Obviously, you know, I did say, you are learning a lot. And one thing that really struck me is that I had to use my highlighter dictionary tool a few times because you throw in some like old timey language or, you know, it it's definitely of that era, even though I could follow there were words that got thrown in there like repast, I think, is one word that you used a a couple of times and I was like, what is that? And had to hover over it. So for those of you that already know that word, just bear with me. But I'm curious, like what kind of research did you have to do to create the language for this period?
Ashton Lattimore (04:03)
I did a lot of research with the Oxford English Dictionary, which has this really great tool, which is a historical thesaurus. So if I have a phrase that I want a character to say, but I only know how to say it in modern language, I can put one of the words into the OED and it will pop up with here's how somebody might have said that in 1650. Here's what the word would have been in 1920. So that's where I picked up a lot of the verbiage.
And then the other big piece of it was watching movies from that era. a lot of them that's early on, so some of them were silent, but movies that were based in that era that were maybe made in the 30s, the 40s, the 50s, and also watching shows like Boardwalk Empire, because those writers did the research as well. So I could kind of pick bits and pieces of their dialogue and say, okay, you know, I think this works or this word, I can find a way to insert that in here.
But, you know, a lot of the the words around liquor, you know, like hooch and, you know, bootlegging and bathtub gin and just all of this kind of like very period specific stuff I picked up from a a lot of actually pop culture and then the other piece of it was reading novels that were written during that time, specifically during the Harlem Renaissance. So I have this collection of books that were written in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, by Harlem Renaissance writers, and I picked and chose a lot of words and and phrases from those as well.
Book Gang- Amy (05:22)
Yeah, I love it when I'm like learning some new words or vocabulary that I was unfamiliar with. And so I kept using that tool where I can like open up the dictionary and I'm like, wow, how did she know about this word? So very, very fun. I'm sure I'm assuming you're a movie watcher with captions on then. So you could like grab all of these really smart words. And you know, did any stick around in your vocabulary where your family was like, Why are you saying that?
Ashton Lattimore (05:48)
I don't think so. I tried to keep myself pretty apart from it, I would say.
Book Gang- Amy (05:53)
Okay. Well, I want to talk about how this book is really anchored in a lot of historic landmarks, some of them still existing, some of them not. There's like Shearer Cottage, we had Wesley House Hotel, Highland Beach, other historic Vineyard landmarks. Did you spend any time walking around in these places? And how did those like visits help you spark some of these scenes?
Ashton Lattimore (06:16)
Yeah, so I did spend a fair bit of time just walking around, particularly in Oak Bluffs. Wesley Hotel isn't there anymore, but I believe it's now the Summer Camp Hotel that sits right at the top of the harbor. So it's the same building. So you can kind of still get a feel for what it would have felt like to be walking around in the shadow of this building. Sure Cottage is still there and I spent a good bit of time in the Highlands neighborhood specifically where so much of the story is set.
And that was really interesting because it's a neighborhood that doesn't look as kind of beachy as you would expect. For Martha's Vineyard and Oak Bluffs it's kind of tucked away in the woods. so it was really nice to just get a sense of that kind of seclusion and how this would feel like a really, you know, safe kind of private space for travelers, particularly for black travelers. So it was really nice to walk those historic grounds.
One of the places I was not able to go was Highland Beach, which is actually called East Chop Beach now. And that's because the beach was made private in the nineteen thirties at some point. So nobody can go there unless you are part of the East Chop Beach Club. So that's one place I didn't get to go. But I was able to walk the rest of the beaches in Oak Bluffs and kind of get a sense for, you know, the sand and surf of it all. But yes, I was barred from Highland Beach.
Book Gang- Amy (07:29)
Love it. You know, even though we lived in Massachusetts, I never did make it over to Martha's Vineyard. And I am just like fascinated by just everything that comes out of there. I love the getting a peek at the luxury lifestyle and all the food and the places to visit. And so this was an opportunity to kind of live vicariously through some of your travels, especially in your author's note where you talk about some of your past visits. I know readers will really latch onto that as well.
Ashton Lattimore (07:54)
Yeah, yeah, it was really nice getting to be there. I got to visit in the fall, which was interesting, just not to be there for all the you know, the summer is the busy season and everything, but it was so nice and quiet and I was able to really kind of soak up the island in a way that, you know, is not always easy when there's a bunch of stuff going on. So yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (08:09)
Yeah, it feels like amateur hour to go in the summer, even though you should. Yeah.
Ashton Lattimore (08:13)
Yes. Yes. Very expensive amateur hour.
Book Gang- Amy (08:17)
I love it. Well, I want to talk about how long this book took. Tell us about this process. I know that you already had a debut, so you may have already had other things that people who are coming on the show that do debuts, like a literary agent and all of those kinds of aspects, but how did this maybe differ from your first experience and what was this process like for you?
Ashton Lattimore (08:38)
This was actually really different from my debut. This was my second book that I wrote with Ballantine. So I did my debut novel with them as well. And they actually bought this one on proposal.
So initially it was three chapters and an outline. And I wrote the outline. I wrote the three chapters. I think I wrote the first couple drafts of the book, not knowing who was behind the shipwreck, not knowing who is the villain in the story, who actually did do this, what happened. So it was different in that I think I was still working out, you know, what the story was for a long period of time within this process.
So it was just the experience of kind of writing under the gun a little bit, under under contract, because I had deadlines for this one in a way that, you know, you're writing your debut, you have your whole life because there's no agent, there's no editor who's waiting on your pages or your draft. so this was a a quite different experience, I would say. But it was also really nice because I had the benefit of bouncing ideas off of my editor and my agent before I sat down and wrote, you know, forty thousand words of the wrong thing. Of course I did still several times write several thousand words of the wrong thing, especially around the villain. And I will not spoil, you know, obviously who's responsible, if anyone is responsible for the shipwreck. Maybe it was an accident. Who knows?
But going through multiple iterations of that, it was nice to have other folks to kind of bounce the plausibility questions off of them.
Book Gang- Amy (10:04)
So are you someone who outlines? I know that they were revealing itself to you, but also at the same time, what did that process look like behind the scenes? Okay.
Ashton Lattimore (10:13)
I'm definitely an outliner. I'm very much an outliner. I like to have a roadmap that I know that I'm following. So I usually outline pretty detailed actually, chapter by chapter, especially when I'm switching point of view, which is something that happens in this story. I'm switching between Lena and D. They're both kind of shared protagonists in this. So I outline to make sure I know where those POVs are hooking up with each other, what point of view it makes sense to have a scene come from for each character.
So I do outline, but when once I get into a scene, the characters often start doing things that I did not intend for them to do or plan for them to do, and I have to kind of go with it and reshape what the rest of the outline looks like after that. So I'm an outliner, but I leave room for serendipity and you know imagination.
Book Gang- Amy (10:55)
Yeah, I love character shenanigans when they're like, I did not expect that either. Did you like that person? I didn't like them. I'm like, what is going on here? I love that about writers.
Ashton Lattimore (11:04)
Yeah, it's fun. It's really fun.
Book Gang- Amy (11:06)
So how long did it take to write this book and can you tell us a little bit about you know, once you finished it, did you do anything fun to celebrate?
Ashton Lattimore (11:14)
It took about two years to write it, start to finish. I had the idea for a long time, but when I actually sat down and started writing it from I think like, you know, first draft to the final that it's coming out right coming out now, about two years, I would say. I don't know that I ever did celebrate actually the end of it. You know, you go through so many drafts that by the time you're finished you're just like, Ugh, get this away from me. Like sending it away is the celebration, I think, at the end of the process. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (11:42)
Yeah. So with your next book, I mean, I don't know where you're at, process wise, but that process of pitching something on proposal versus writing it and then selling it. w what are you doing moving forward? Did you like one more than the other, you know, creatively?
Ashton Lattimore (12:01)
I honestly don't know. I'm not sure yet what I'm doing going forward. I think there are benefits to each. It was nice, again, like I said, having the benefit of my editor, my agent with me as I was shaping the story. But there was also something really nice about kind of deciding for myself with my debut what is this and shaping it into what I want to be and making sure I really understand it before I turn it into something that's for public consumption. So I'm still kind of working through and, you know, I'm nibbling around the edges of my third book and, you know, we'll see what I end up doing with it.
Book Gang- Amy (12:32)
Yeah, it's always interesting because I do have writers that come through and really like that proposal, like the mystery of it all. And then I also have people who found that to be really like a pressure cooker situation where then you have to deliver on something. And sometimes, you know, your ideas change or you realize it's not working, and then you have to like kind of re-pivot yourself around those kinds of things. So it's it's a really fascinating process. Both processes are very interesting to me as someone on the outside.
Ashton Lattimore (12:58)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's I can see both sides of it for sure.
Book Gang- Amy (13:02)
Well, did the success of the first book make writing the second harder for you?
Ashton Lattimore (13:06)
I wouldn't say so. They're so different. I think there are ways that they're in conversation with each other, but in a lot of ways I think Runner is a little bit of a reaction to the first book and a chance for me to kind of explore different ways of writing and different kinds of subject matter. It's a little, it's not as clean, and which makes sense, you know, it's a book about prohibition. It's not going to be necessarily as family friendly. So it felt more like striking out into new territory very intentionally, I would say.
Book Gang- Amy (13:42)
Was it more fun?
Ashton Lattimore (13:43)
No. It was hard.
Book Gang- Amy (13:44)
Okay. Okay.
Ashton Lattimore (13:47)
It was very hard. Because I think part of the new territory that I'm striking out into was this little bit of mystery aspect of it. and that wasn't there. That wasn't a thread that was within All We Were Promised. so figuring that out and figuring out how to do that was actually quite challenging. So it was a tough write I would say. I wouldn't say that it came together as I won't say easily as my debut. No book comes together easily, but this one felt like a little bit more of a fight, I think, to get it to the place that it is now.
Book Gang- Amy (14:17)
Well, it I mean, I feel like whenever I read something and it's really easy to read that there was a lot of effort behind the scenes to make it so digestible because I'm like, it's soapy, it's fun and you're like, it was really hard
Ashton Lattimore (14:29)
Yes. But I'm glad it comes across as easy to read and like fun and yeah, twisty and everything. But yes, that's is as fun as it is to read the writing process is something else entirely. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (14:43)
Yeah, thank you for making it effortless for me, at least on this side of things. Well, I wanna get into obviously your research process and everything. I was really fascinated, frankly, about how the Black Maritime working class and the beginnings of the Black elite are featured in this. And historically, you know, I didn't really know very much about how the communities were interconnected and how they played upon each other. I loved that you're bringing both of these things to life for us. And I'd love to hear a little bit about the research or maybe what assumptions people had about this time around that and what maybe you even had to unlearn about it.
Ashton Lattimore (15:20)
Yeah. So I think this particular piece of history, the black maritime history of Martha's Vineyard, I think is not really well known. The way that people understand the island now is, you know, the film festival and the Obamas are here and it's all very elite and high class. And I think there's a sense that it came into being that way, kind of fully formed in the forties, like in the you know, the Harlem Renaissance and all of those figures who are coming up to the island.
But the people who've been here or been there year round, and who were whalers and fishermen and sailors and business owners, I think it is not as well known. And for me it was really interesting, because I've always heard of the Vineyard as a haven for black travelers, black vacationers. So to learn about in the early twentieth century some of the, let's say, de facto segregation that was going on and some of the discrimination. So the the reason that many of the inns and cottages that we have now in the Vineyard that are black owned came into being was because the hotels wouldn't let black people stay in those in those places.
So I think it kind of disrupts the way that we see Massachusetts as, you know, a haven free from racism and free from segregation and the way that we see the Vineyard as this sort of, you know, high class elite destination. but the interplay between the two classes of people I thought was really interesting because some of the folks who own those early rooming houses were year-round residents of the Vineyard and they're interacting with other people.
One thing I learned while I was researching the history of Shearer Cottage was it was initially before it was an inn, they ran a laundry out of there that washed and pressed the petticoats of many of the wealthy visitors to the island. And the owners of Shearer Cottage, they were summer residents who were based in the Boston area. But the women that they employed in the laundry over the summers were year-round black women, Native American women who lived in the area. I think some of the Portuguese women who were immigrants during this time. So these two sets of people, the year rounders and the summer residents, we're not as separate, I think, as we would imagine.
Book Gang- Amy (17:23)
Yeah, I I think it especially worked well in this story, right? Because not only are you showcasing like there are these two classes of people that are living on the same island, but also that the ways that this mystery plays out, right, is that one person has the connections, one person has, you know, business owners in their pocket, things that other, you know, the other girl could not access, but the other has this like lived experience and knows all the working class people. And so to bring those two together really created such great dynamics.
And, I had a really wonderful time looking at the clips that you had posted from the Essence Festival talking about how you didn't want this to be a monolith experience, right? And that was something that you were really striving to showcase. So you have, both the different classes, but also like different education levels, different economic backgrounds. What does economic security even look like? One of your main characters, you know, the reason why she's gonna have to take over her dad's business is because they need to pay their mortgage, right? And so like that's a very like real thing I think that even people can relate to today. So I'd love to talk about how important it was to portray those different levels and how much fun was that to research for you.
Ashton Lattimore (18:41)
It was really interesting to research the mortgage piece of it, learning what, you know, mortgages were apparently different in the nineteen twenties.
Book Gang- Amy (18:48)
Tell me more, like tell me more.
Ashton Lattimore (18:52)
They were like five; they were five years typically. And I think they were only, but then you had to like pay the whole thing back at the end of the five years. Just very, very different than what we have going on today. And the the taxes and the the way that I found these kind of like tax foreclosure situations was that I was going through old copies of the newspaper where they would post yeah, this house, these people have not paid their taxes. So their house is going to be up for auction, like in the newspaper, which is horrible.
Book Gang- Amy (19:15)
Oh my gosh.
Ashton Lattimore (19:16)
But you know, that's what happened. So your house would go up, go up for auction, you know, after your foreclosure or however it worked. but it was very public, which is something that I noticed. And kind of weaving that piece of it into the story because it sort of puts your economic business out on Front Street in a way that doesn't necessarily happen as much today.
But I just I really enjoyed portraying the different classes. I really loved getting to research the Boston black upper class, which is sort of a feeder society for the Vineyard during this period and learning about that whole society and the women and the community service and just sort of the whole social world that they got to inhabit.
But I really love writing cross class stories. My debut was similar in that way where you have people from very different social circumstances kind of interacting with one another. And I just think it's really fertile ground for interesting relationship dynamics because of the levels of mistrust and fascination and maybe even envy in some ways not always going the direction you would expect. It's not always the working class person who envies the person who is working or is upper class. Sometimes it's going the other way. so really getting to kind of dig into those dynamics was really interesting for me.
Book Gang- Amy (20:29)
Yeah, and you also have like the matriarch of the family, right? What her impressions of, that life is and what they want for their kids too, which I I find also interesting, you know, especially I think all people can relate to what our parents want and what we want are sometimes very different things and show showcasing those two generations as well, beyond just the class and the economic situation. But my gosh, I'm so glad that we've done away with like putting it in the newspaper about when we can't pay for our bills.
Ashton Lattimore (20:54)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (20:55)
But I mean, some of that's still lingering. I'm sure when people file for bankruptcy everyone's like, like so that got it in the paper. You know, I guess I guess public shaming is still in around that.
Ashton Lattimore (21:06)
Yes. Yes. Very popular perennial perennially popular public shaming
Book Gang- Amy (21:11)
Well, I want people to peek at your Instagram, but I just wanted to kind of brush lightly upon you have so many fun little like treasure trove things for people to explore within your Instagram where you were showcasing the, you know, research that you did or things that you uncovered. And that made me think like, who is someone that you wanted to really highlight on your Instagram feed or someone that was really compelling to you that people maybe not know about?
Ashton Lattimore (21:38)
Sure. I would say the main person that I learned about in this process was Captain William Martin, who was the first, possibly only, black whaling captain who operated out of Martha's Vineyard. And this is in the mid-19th century to late 19th century. He died in 1907, but he was a black man who rose up to become captain of a whaling ship and sailed several successful whaling voyages. And he's just really emblematic of the Black Maritime history of the island.
And the interesting thing about him is his grandmother, actually, who was a woman named Nancy Michael, she was born enslaved and was enslaved for the first early part of her life. But by the time she was an older woman, somehow everyone in Edgartown, which was the main whaling town, had become convinced that she was essentially some kind of sea witch. And they would come and bring her gifts before they went out on their voyages. Basically, to make sure that they secured her blessings and that they would come back alive and that they would come back, you know, having prospered on their voyage. No idea how all of this came about, but she, you know, she fed into it and she benefited from it and she accepted their gifts. And apparently she would, you know, curse people who didn't believe in her power. just absolutely fascinating.
And then her grandson goes on to become this highly successful whaling Captain. So it's a very long history of black folks and the sea on the Vineyard. And I just loved kind of diving into it. So Captain William Martin, he is not in the novel, he would have been dead by the time the events of the novel happen, but he's the inspiration for the family history of Lena's mother. So Lena's mother, her father was a whaling captain in this. So he's based pretty heavily on Captain W William Martin. So yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (23:23)
Wow, can you imagine being the designated sea witch? That's crazy. What does this even say? I don't know.
Ashton Lattimore (23:26)
Right? Like that how do you get that job?
Book Gang- Amy (23:30)
I kind of like the idea of being showered with presents.
Ashton Lattimore (23:33)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (23:33)
I'm like, okay, that part I can be on board with, but being, you know, deemed a witch, I don't know. I don't know. Kind of mixed feelings.
Ashton Lattimore (23:38)
Yeah, not super safe in the 1800s. Like I I don't know, you know, w how you know, how how secure her life was, but it seems to have worked out, so
Book Gang- Amy (23:48)
Yeah. Well, you know, obviously researching this novel must have been looking beyond things that we typically think about like the civil rights or great migration histories into something probably quite different. I'm thinking maritime archives, shipping records, island history. What did you use that maybe people might be surprised by? Or what was your research challenge in this book?
Ashton Lattimore (24:10)
So I looked a lot at newspaper accounts. Newspapers would typically cover the ship wrecks. If there was a wreck, the newspapers would cover that. And there were also several newspaper stories of I don't know if these ships were throwing their cargo overboard so that they wouldn't get caught by the Coast Guard, but just bottles rolling into the shore. And there would just be periodic times where people from the community closest to the beach would go and basically camp out and just wait for stuff to roll in and just take bottles home for free. Several newspaper stories like that.
And then the other piece of it was the records of organizations like the Women's Christian Temperance Union, which was this anti alcohol organization of women who were basically very in favor of prohibition. So I got to read a lot of their meeting minutes. Which was just fascinating to understand how they were fighting against the scourge of alcohol and bootlegging and things like that. I would say the biggest challenge was because rum smuggling and rum running is crime or was crime at the time, people were not leaving a ton of records. They were not leaving a ton of firsthand accounts, like, yes, here is how I took my boat out to Rum Row and I brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars of illegal contraband and sold it and evaded the law. Nothing like that. There's there's very little.
Book Gang- Amy (25:23)
Yeah.
Ashton Lattimore (25:25)
So I had to rely on some, you know, sort of myth myth and legend to some extent. police records that I could find, you know, of people who were maybe arrested for doing these things, and the few stories that made it to the newspaper. But I have a strong suspicion there's a great deal that never made it into the historical record simply because of the way that that crime works. You know, you're not going to, you know, keep a record of your criminal conspiracy. Not if you're smart, anyway.
Book Gang- Amy (25:51)
Yeah. Sense that makes sense. I wondered what your challenges would be on this project. So that's really, really interesting. Well, I don't want to give away spoilers on this side, although if you're a patron, you will get to join us on the other side. But Lena moves through spaces that aren't, I think, usually connected in the public imagination. So we have the world of labor, the world of wealth, the world of crime. So what did that movement allow you to explore that maybe a more narrowly focused story could not? And what were you surprised to discover was involved in the like illegal transactions during prohibition.
Ashton Lattimore (26:26)
It was, really it was fun to get to explore. She gets to go so many places, especially out on the water, during those transactions. And I think, especially when she's doing the rum smuggling and she's going out to rum row and she's meeting up with these ships, just the sense of danger. You know, I think we kind of understand in the abstract how dangerous that would be, but you're basically taking a ship out in the middle of the night to meet with some strangers. And the only thing you know about the strangers is that they are criminals too, and they're on boats that are fitted with machine guns. And you know, she's this small woman climbing up the side of this boat to meet these men she doesn't know to buy contraband from them. So just trying to feel out the physical space of what something like that would look like, you know, climbing up the side of this hulking ship was just interesting.
But some of the scenes that I loved writing and researching the most were when she finds herself in clubs in Boston and, you know, ultimately in New York and what some of these places were like. What was most enjoyable for me was entertaining the idea that as glamorous as they all seem in retrospect in history, some of them were probably terrible, right? Like some of these clubs were pretty shabby or not run very well. So what would it be like for her to not only be in the glamorous Prohibition era spaces that we imagine with all the jazz and you know the gold and you know everything else? What would it be like to be in one that was run down and, you know, has sold terrible liquor and it's all watered down and cheap. So just letting her walk through the different iterations of what a life might look like in this moment. And the grittier pieces of it was really enjoyable for me.
And then the other piece of it was Dee, who is our other point of view character. She's from Boston. So she gets to walk through some very different spaces because she's in the world of music, but she's also in this sort of artistic, elite, socialite kind of space. So seeing the places where black women gathered for art galleries or you know music lessons that they're sending their children to. And just being in these beautiful brownstones and townhouses in downtown Boston, was just lovely to research and kind of experience vicariously through her.
Book Gang- Amy (28:39)
Yeah, I loved you know that aspect as well. And I also loved that, you know, we have those volunteer organizations that her mother is part of. So you could go on a little bit of a rabbit trail with some of the things that she was involved with, with the league and other organizations that she was privy to. I thought that was really interesting. Of course I'm like loving the negotiations that have to go on. You know, you had to write these scenes where sometimes these situations potentially could go sideways. And we also have to imagine too that, it was like risking your life to drink at places because you really don't know what people are going to be giving you for liquor, which is something, you know, I don't always think of that. We always think of it, it's watery or it's but you just don't know, right? You don't know your sources and and so that that can, definitely get into some dicey terrain.
Ashton Lattimore (29:26)
Yeah, you really were taking your life in your hands in a lot of places. there are a a fair number of records of people who died or who were blinded or otherwise kind of poisoned or really severely harmed by liquor, typically not smut sm smuggled liquor, but liquor that people were mixing up in their bathtubs or mixing up it with chemicals. I think there are some that people that use like formaldehyde, just stuff that you should not be drinking.
But they said, okay, well, this contains alcohol, so I'm gonna go ahead and try to distill out the alcohol. But meanwhile, there's all these like embalming chemicals that are still within people really it was a very dangerous time. Even if you weren't out, you know, smuggling liquor, if you were kind of trying to manufacture it or bootleg it, or you know, you're a moonshiner. It's not hard for things to go wrong. But people were very determined to have their drinks and you know, I guess they were willing to take the risk.
That's part of the reason I think there was such a high premium on the quality stuff that you knew was not made in someone's bathtub, but it was imported from Canada or was imported from Europe or the Bahamas or something and there's a seal on the bottle. But you know, even that kind of stuff could be faked. So you have to be very, very careful.
Book Gang- Amy (30:38)
Yeah, yeah, you definitely bring a lot of that to light. And I I really delighted in that aspect and and just thinking about how like would I be willing to like risk my life just to get a drink? I mean, I don't know. And anytime that you make something illegal, that's what's going to happen, right? People are going to figure out a way to access whatever they need to. And I think this is a cautionary tale for a lot of different things that go on in the world. That once we make something illegal, like these are kind of the repercussions. There's a little pushback back that comes back to you. It's a boomerang effect for sure.
Ashton Lattimore (31:10)
Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (31:13)
Well, obviously I feel like one of the main things I got out of this, whether that was your intent or not, is that there are all these economic systems that are just failing women. And I think that that comes to light. And I think it's something that is important for book clubs to maybe discuss and think about. Did that theme develop for you naturally? I mean, obviously you knew that you had these two dynamic female leads at the top of the story, but did you know that those kinds of restraints would be kind of a driver or a story engine for these women?
Ashton Lattimore (31:44)
I think it came to me more as I wrote the relationships between them and their mothers. The mother stories are really where I started to feel the constraints because to some extent Lena and Dee are relatively young, you know, they're in their early twenties, they're coming of age at the time when women have just gotten the vote. They're feeling their freedom in a way that I think their mothers never really do. Particularly Lena's mother.
So just thinking about why she made some of the choices that she made, why she put up with some of the things that she put up with in her life. and, you know, what economic choices were available to her. And for the time, you know, that she was growing up and she was a year-round Vineyard resident, she could pretty much be a domestic or nothing. You know, there just really wasn't very much available for her to do as a woman, as a black woman.
And you know, eventually in this period, there are black women who are becoming business owners and opening up their inns and cottages and rooming houses. So that was kind of another pathway, but that requires home ownership. So thinking about, you know, what was the pathway to home ownership during this time for women, for for black women in particular, and just the the constraints that were on them were so significant that it's it's sort of not surprising that their daughters would look at something like this and say, Well, okay, you know, if I can't do the things that I need to do to take care of myself, well, why shouldn't I go be a criminal and and get my money that way? It's even be working fine for the men.
And that's sort of Lena's central conceit. Like, okay, well, my dad behaved like this. Why can't I? And the story is her finding out why she can't, and what happens when she tries. And I think the economic piece of that is is a really important part of it because there just simply aren't that many ways for women to to earn significant amounts of money, I will say. There are ways for them to kind of scratch out a living, but for them to be comfortable and feel well taken care of in the way that they would if there was still that family patriarch, that's been taken away and it it definitely leaves them in a situation where they're really having to scramble and and fight to kind of maintain
Book Gang- Amy (33:51)
Yeah, I love how the generational themes emerged. And I know we haven't really talked as much as I would like about Dee, but we have Viola, Dee, and Hazel who were all inspired by rich histories of communities that fostered, I think, the philanthropy end of things, the volunteerism that's happening within the arts, the activism, all of those organizations as well, like the NAACP, the Urban League, and the Women's Service Club. Did you have any real life figures that helped inform those characters and that world of the more black elite experience?
Ashton Lattimore (34:26)
Yes. And what was nice is that that world is much more well documented than the criminal underworld. So there were several figures, mostly the founders of things like the Women's Service Club, the League of Women and Community Service. There was also a precursor club to those, which was called the Women's Era Club that was also based in Boston, another black women's kind of community service and civic engagement club. And there was one in particular, Maud Cuney Hare who was a member of one of the clubs, and she was also a pianist who was trained at the New England Conservatory of Music. So she was a very direct inspiration for Dee, just because seeing women who were walking in those two worlds, the world of music and also the world of community service and civic engagement, and seeing how those were kind of threaded together. Because one of the things that I saw was that the women's clubs were not only focused on activism and politics and civic engagement, but they were really patrons of the arts.
So they would host art shows within their clubhouses on Massachusetts Avenue and Boston. They would put together music exhibitions. So it was very much it's very cultured. It was just very cultured kind of world that was also focused a lot on doing good in the world as well. So it was just a really interesting interplay. And yeah, there were a lot of women that I was able to draw inspiration from pretty, pretty directly for Dee and her mother and for Hazel.
Book Gang- Amy (35:45)
Well, if you could dream of an incredible book club chat, what do you want to see book clubs talking about from this book specifically?
Ashton Lattimore (35:54)
I would love to see the book clubs talk about the mothers and daughters in this story. I think those relationships are fascinating and they were fun and difficult to write because the relationships are not easy. The other piece of it I think is the alcohol piece. It's a Prohibition story and Prohibition is it's a fun era to kind of learn and write about, but I think sometimes the seriousness of it gets lost. What was happening that made the United States want to ban alcohol in the first place? Why women in particular were so adamant about this amendment being passed. And a lot of what was happening was that their husbands were taking their paychecks and spending them down at the bar and then coming home and you know, beating their wives and not going to work and and everything else. Like it was actually quite bad.
and the alcohol quality was also terrible. So it was impacting people's physical health. So thinking about what situations the women of the story find themselves in with regard to alcohol. And I'm thinking of Lena's aunts in particular on the Vineyard who have husbands who are alcohol abusers.
So taking stepping back from the fun of the Prohibition era and looking at some of the characters who are actually not handling this world well at all. and Lena's brother is another one of them, Walter, who also struggles pretty heavily with alcohol abuse, but you know, it's his job. He's a rum Runner, he's around it all the time. And, you know, what is that what might that have looked like? I think is an interesting historical conversation. So I would say those things.
Book Gang- Amy (37:22)
Yeah, and it's hard, I think, with book clubs to find something that's both escapist and meaty enough to talk about. But this book really like toes the line well on the balance of that.
Ashton Lattimore (37:40)
Thank you.
Book Gang- Amy (37:41)
And I love that you're bringing up these like more serious aspects because of course when we think of prohibition, we're thinking Gatsby, like fun and like light and how fun this time was, but there were serious consequences to living in a world like this. And I think there's so much great overlap on other topics that people could lean into as far as this goes and I couldn't agree more. I absolutely love this story so very much. I do want to ask you, Ashton, do you have any other books you would recommend? It doesn't have to be related to this topic, but what are you reading lately?
Ashton Lattimore (38:06)
I am currently reading The Quarter Queen by Kayla Hardy, which is set in New Orleans and it follows Marie Laveau, who's the voodoo queen of New Orleans and her daughter. And I'm just loving it. I'm just loving every piece of it. It's sort of like almost historical fantasy, a mix between the two things. But you really get this beautiful portrait of New Orleans, nighttime New Orleans, kind of spooky, magic New Orleans. It's fabulous. so I highly recommend it.
Book Gang- Amy (38:33)
Okay, thank you for giving us that book recommendation. Well, are you taking a little break then? What are you going to be doing now? Tell us about what you have going on with your book tour.
Ashton Lattimore (38:42)
So I am actually recording this from Atlanta. so I'm just starting my, yeah, my book tour right now. So I'm going to be doing a series of bookstore events. I'm going to be in Atlanta, New Orleans, Montclair, New Jersey, which is very close to where I live. I'll be in Chicago. The most exciting perhaps for this book specifically is I'm gonna be at the Martha's Vineyard Black Book Festival in August. So I'll go get to talk about Runner in the place Runner is set. So I'm very excited for that.
And I'm also gonna be at the History Book Festival in September and I have a couple of other events that are gonna be added to the schedule. So hopefully if your listeners are going to be anywhere near any of these places, they will come and see me.
Book Gang- Amy (39:24)
What a dream, Martha's Vineyard. I love this for you. I can't believe that. That's amazing.
Ashton Lattimore (39:26)
Yeah. I'm thrilled.
Book Gang- Amy (39:30)
I'm so happy for you. Well, we always end our show here the same way, which is asking what you're feeling proud of, whether it's with this project or with life in general. And it just gives me a chance to tell you I loved this book so much. Thank you so much for taking a risk on my independent show and like being here to talk about your work. I respect all of this research and I had such a great time spending an afternoon sharing stuff with my family that I had uncovered that I had never knew about. I made them all watch your videos. Like I, I legit loved this book so much and I hope that more readers will pick it up. But I would love to hear what you're feeling proud of right now.
Ashton Lattimore (40:07)
Well, first of all, thank you so much. I love hearing that. I appreciate it. I would say what I'm most proud of, particularly with this book, is something that you touched on, which is striking a balance between the wild, fun, soapy ride of it all and having it actually be grounded in real history and real topics and a family drama that carries, you know, some degree of seriousness with it.
It was not always easy to strike the balance between those two things, but I really wanted to take people on a ride with this story and to know that at least for you and some of the other readers I've started to be hearing from, that I've accomplished that. and that you learned something along what is ultimately a wild, twisty ride. That's all I ever wanted for this story. so just the fact that it came across just means the world to me. So thank you.
Book Gang- Amy (41:00)
Of course. Well, everyone, you must pick up Runner. And if you're a patron of the show, which is five dollars a month and you get this wonderful commercial free podcast, but also a lot of other bonuses on the other side, Ashton's gonna be joining me over on the other side to talk about all the soapy twists that this story took. You don't wanna miss it. So I hope that you will consider being a patron and thank you so much for listening.
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