Thao Thai returns to Book Gang with The Seekers of Deer Creek—a lush, moving novel about sisters, art, and the inherited secrets that bind and break families.
Thao Thai returns to Book Gang with The Seekers of Deer Creek—a lush, moving novel about sisters, art, and the inherited secrets that bind and break families.
I’m delighted to welcome Thao Thai back to Book Gang as she takes us behind the scenes of The Seekers of Deer Creek. Thao’s work is immersive, atmospheric, and deeply tender, and her newest novel is a testament to the power of art and family history.
Today, we explore Thao’s writing process, the evolution from Banyan Moon to this new work, and her approach to language, research, and the changing landscape of literary fiction.
The Seekers of Deer Creek tells the story of two estranged sisters, Calla and Vivi, reunited by their father's passing and an inheritance that could reshape their futures. Their journey is sparked by a mysterious sketch and a journal entry, launching them into a search for family truth that spans Wisconsin, France, and Vietnam.
Thao unpacks generational secrets, Vietnamese artistic legacy, and the longing to be seen and understood—inviting us to revisit the stories we inherit and the ones we choose to live.
In this week’s fascinating episode, we discuss:
📚 The Writing Journey: Thao reveals how her creative process transformed from debut to sophomore novel—the struggles, surprises, and the freedom she found when she stopped chasing trends and let the story lead her. We talk about patience, perseverance, and learning to trust your instincts (and your editors) when the book wants to become something new.
📚 Art, Inheritance & Storytelling: Discover how emotion and ancestral secrets shape Thao’s fiction, the inspiration behind her art-infused storytelling, and why she believes every object and artifact in a novel must earn its place on the page. We also explore Vietnamese history, generational longing, and the power of art to connect us across time and place.
📚 Restoration & Sisterhood: Step into the delicate, invisible work of art conservation and the equally complex labor of repairing a sister bond. Thao shares why she resists easy villains, how she crafts flawed but deeply lovable characters, and what it means to find beauty in the light that relationship 'lace' lets through.
BONUS BOOK LIST: My Top Books of the Year (So Far) – I’m sharing the fifteen books that have wowed me after reading sixty-eight titles through June! Patrons receive a printable list and a sneak peek at two book club picks for our 2027 book club year. Join us behind the paywall for a printable book list and a bonus spoiler episode with Thao Thao!
Meet Thao Thai
Thao Thai is the author of Banyan Moon, the July 2023 Read with Jenna title, Barnes & Noble Discover Pick, and Book of the Month selection. Banyan Moon was also selected by booksellers as an IndieNext pick and longlisted for the Center for Fiction’s First Novel Prize. She was the recipient of the 2024 Ohio Arts Council’s Individual Excellence Award, and her work has been published in the Los Angeles Review of Books, WIRED, Elle, Lit Hub, and other publications. She lives in central Ohio with her husband and daughter. The Seekers of Deer Creek publishes August 4th.
NEW BOOK LIST: My Top Books of 2026 (So Far) Book List (FREE TO BROWSE ON PATREON THIS WEEK)
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2026 MomAdvice Book Club Books (All 12 Selections)
The Half Life by Rachel Beanland
People Magazine: I Was Raised as an Only Child and Discovered I Had a Sister When I Was 22
The Seekers of Deer Creek by Thao Thai
The Best Debut Novels of 2023 podcast with Thao Thai
Composition With Figures on a Terrace
Banyan Moon by Thao Thai
Service95 Book Club (Dua’s Monthly Reads)
Adam & Evie’s Matchmaking Tour by Nora Nguyen
Almost Life by Kiran Millwood Hargrave
Little Women by Louisa May Alcott
Beezus and Ramona by Beverly Cleary
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Book Gang Podcast Transcript:
Thao Thai (00:00)
Hi, my name is Thao Thai and my book is The Seekers of Deer Creek.
Amy’s Warm Introduction:
Hey, Book Gang! Today is a special episode with my dear friend Thao Thai and her exquisite new novel, The Seekers of Deer Creek. It’s a rare delight in this heart-wrenching, distracting world to become so lost in a writer’s work that you lose track of time entirely, but Thao Thai’s lush prose in this novel transported me elsewhere—and I am so excited to welcome her back to the show.
The Seekers of Deer Creek is a magnificent, balanced novel—equal parts character-driven and plot, and an ideal pick for anyone eager to get their training wheels on for literary fiction this summer. Thao unfolds the story of two estranged sisters—each shaped by different temperaments and wounds—drawn together by their father’s passing and the promise of an inheritance that just might alter their futures.
Calla, restless and creative, lives with a wild streak that’s fueled both her art and her struggles with addiction. After years apart, it’s the discovery of an 8-by-10 sketch and a 1940s journal entry tucked among their father’s things that brings her back into the orbit of her older sister, Vivi. Vivi, ever the cautious guardian, can’t help but greet Calla’s return with wary eyes, scanning for that telltale trace of Pinot Noir, even as those old loyalties tug at her heart.
When Calla hands Vivi the drawing, the trajectory of their lives changes entirely. It’s a sketch of two women staring from the surface of a mirror, a charcoal fissure separating them—so distinct, it makes Vivi quaver. The faces are blank, but the work is a near-perfect replica of an elusive Vietnamese French Surrealist painter named K.P. Lý. On the cusp of launching the biggest exhibit of her career, Vivi has devoted herself to this very artist, whose early sketch they now seemingly hold. The drawing seems to be in conversation with a painting titled Blue Mirror, scheduled for delivery the next day.
As Vivi examines the painting, she’s struck by the rich blues—brushstrokes heavy like clay, tactile and gluttonous. Her gaze is drawn to a tapering red streak down the middle, and when she begins cleaning the painting, the varnish breaks and peels, revealing another layer with hints of hidden faces. One is Vietnamese—with cropped hair, winged brows, and a freckle beneath her eye that matches Vivi’s own.
Readers are launched on a quest from the forests of Wisconsin to sunlit French estates, and finally to Việt Nam, to learn more about their family’s rich history with this painter, to uncover the secrets of their past through journals, and, hopefully, to restore order to the sisterly relationship they once shared.
Thao writes, “The tragedy of the human experience is how avidly we each resist translation even as we yearn to be understood.” That longing—to be seen and known—ripples through every page of this novel. It’s a story that asks us to look again at our parents’ paths, to sift through the complexities and prejudices they navigated, and to approach each other with renewed gentleness. In the end, we’re all seekers, carrying our own burdens, hoping for understanding as we journey forward. How lucky we are to live in a world with Thao Thai as a storyteller.
Before we dive into her writing journey, I want to share something Thao recently wrote for People Magazine that has added a brand new layer to this story. In her new essay, “I Was Raised as an Only Child and Discovered I Had a Sister When I Was 22,” she writes, “Can one be a sister if one never knew one’s siblings?” linked in today’s show notes” Thao’s longing for sisterhood—first an imaginary companion, later found through friends, and ultimately discovered in the most unexpected way—echoes through every page of her new novel. The stories that shape us, the silences we inherit, the ache for connection and understanding—these are at the heart of everything she writes not only in this book, but in her other novels.
To celebrate Thao’s novel, I’ve curated my Best Books of 2026 (So Far)—free to browse on Patreon which includes this special novel. Patrons also receive a printable list and an exclusive spoiler-filled chat with Thao in their inbox today.
If you’re new here, hi! I’m Amy Allen Clark, and this is the Book Gang podcast, where we celebrate debuts, backlist favorites, and under-the-radar book gems. We are almost to the close of our summer seasons and will celebrate our final summer author next week with Rachel Beanland and her juicy historical fiction novel, The Half-Life. We are working behind the scenes as an editiorial team to put together a fun Summer Wrapped episode for you to share our favorite moments so I hope you’ll be sure to subscribe to this show! We have spent the entire summer working through the 2026 Summer Reading Guide filled with 70 handpicked titles, 57 pages of bookish fun, and it is still available as an instant download for $7. Through this immersive season, we had the opportunity to celebrate so many incredible storytellers including today’s guest.
We’re about to turn the page on something truly special at Book Gang—our first Classics Club is launching, and you’re invited! We’re reading Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre together, savoring all the gothic secrets, swoony yearning, and radical independence that make this classic so addictive. Whether you are rereading it, a teacher who taught it, or someone discovering the classic for the first time, we welcome all levels of readers to join our book club for a live, cozy Zoom chat on the third Thursday of each month, August through October, at 8 PM ET.
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For just $5, you’ll help keep this indie show thriving—and you’ll be absolutely showered in bookish goodness: exclusive access to our Classics Club readalongs, bonus deep dives, and our monthly FULLY BOOKED show, where Get Booked With Larry and I spill all the hottest picks (and which buzzy books to skip!) every month. It’s the book club your TBR dreams about—Please consider coming to fall in love with Jane Eyre (and a whole new community of readers) with us!
Now, let’s meet this week’s guest:
Thao Thai is the author of Banyan Moon—a Read with Jenna selection, Barnes & Noble Discover Pick, and Book of the Month favorite. She was awarded the 2024 Ohio Arts Council’s Individual Excellence Award, and her writing has appeared in the Los Angeles Review of Books, WIRED, Elle, Lit Hub, and more. She lives in central Ohio with her husband and daughter. The Seekers of Deer Creek is out August 4th.
One last thing: if you enjoy the show, please consider leaving a review on iTunes—it’s a quick, free way to show your support. And to our patrons: you are the keepers of stories, sustaining the art of literary connection in a world that sometimes feels all pixels, no heart. Thank you for supporting human creators in a world turned upside down by AI.
Now, let’s get chatting.
Amy Clark (00:06)
So Thao, it is so wonderful to have you back to the show. I'm so excited to celebrate this book. And obviously since we have such a prevalent art theme in this one, I have to ask you if there is one particular piece of art that you would love to spend the day with, just admiring.
Thao Thai (00:28)
That's a great question, Amy, and I am so excited to be back here as I mentioned you were the first podcast I ever did and I'm so glad that was the case because you put me immediately at ease with this whole PR cycle. But in terms of art, I have to say before I tell you what I'm thinking, I was looking at the photos from the Met Gala. I don't know if you know, but this year's theme was art in fashion and wearable art and I was so struck by Madonna's ensemble. She was paying homage to Dorothea Tanning, who is this famous surrealist female painter. And so I was thinking a lot about that and the links between art and fashion and style and how it sort of lives and breathes in our everyday and pop culture. And it's sort of like the one topic that we all have something to say something about even if we don't know we're thinking about it.
But you know, in terms of the one piece of art, it's so hard to pinpoint this. It's like saying, what's the one book you would read over and over again? There's so many, and it's so dependent on sort of mood and the season of life. But right now, I think since I'm thinking so much about surrealist art and mythology and storytelling, I would pick a piece of Leonor Fini’s. She is an Argentinian French surrealist painter,
She has this very distinctive style. It's incredibly informed by symbology and it's very dreamlike as most surrealist work is, but there is this real subversive quality to it. She has this piece and I've never seen it in person. I actually think it might be in a private collection right now, but it's called Composition of Figures on a Terrace. And it's just, you'll have to look it up, but it's one of those images that is very dense with meaning.
So I think what the kind of art that I like to contemplate is the kind that leads you into a story of some sort where you can overwrite your imagination and sort of let it unfold in a way that also merges with what the artist is doing. And I think it's such an interesting and inviting piece. I feel like the best art is the art that kind of makes you stop and feel something for a second, even if you're not staying there for a long time. The kind that kind of pulls you from sort of the daily bubble of modanity and just sort of makes you come to yourself for a second. That's what makes art so powerful and interesting to me.
Amy Clark (03:09)
Hmm, I always learn something new when you're here, Thao. I love this so much. I can't wait to look this up and of course, I'll link to this piece in the show notes, but I haven't even got to. I went to bed early. My daughter was sending me DMs from college about all the Met Gala outfits that she loved, but I haven't seen Madonna's and now I'm super excited to like get off here and look it up.
Thao Thai (03:20)
Yes, please do, because what's I think what's so interesting about it too is that it's multi-dimensional. It's not just the gown on her own body. It's kind of held up by all these other figures surrounding her in this circle. And so it becomes an installation. She is she's walking art. And yeah, I think that just fits in so well with what this book is trying to do in terms of embodying art as a part of our lives and also sort of breathing in the stories of who we are and referencing backward to the past too.
Amy Clark (04:09)
Well, I love learning all about that. And before we get into this book, I wanted to talk a little bit about your career. So I love knowing that I was one of the first people you talked to. And I believe that I even may have spoken to you before the big book club announcement and all of that that transpired with Banyan Moon. So you were selected as a Read with Jenna book club pick. And I love hearing about everyone's experience being part of the celebrity book clubs.
Did that help your career? What did that look like for you as an author to be selected for a slot?
Thao Thai (04:49)
Oh my goodness, Amy, so you were one of the very first people to predict it. And I remember I was scrolling on TikTok and I happened upon your account and you said something like, this is going to be a Read With Jenna pick and I hadn't told anybody yet and I was so impressed with sort of your prescience in knowing this.
But yes, the book club, Jenna, the whole team, it was the most incredible experience. It was first of all an enormous surprise as a debut author. And it was an enormous honor just in terms of all the book clubs. I find myself gravitating to hers the most and just my reading and what I like to consume as a reader. And so it launched me in this really beautiful way and it gave me this validation of course, this confidence, all these opportunities to connect with readers and to have a wider platform with which to reach the right readers. And Jenna and her team are, of course, just really avid supporters and advocates for books, and it feels so good to be a part of a group that really believes in the life-changing power of reading. And I just can't say enough good things about it. It just was an overwhelming and completely incredible experience.
Amy Clark (06:21)
I forgot that I had predicted that. I used to do that on air. I didn't, I was getting very bold, especially when I first started to say where I thought it lived. And I just remember that she was picking so many books that were kind of sitting in the literary fiction and contemporary fiction space. And it just seemed like this would be something that she would gravitate towards. And I will say too, like of the celebrity book clubs, her and Dua Lipa I think are doing the absolute most in their book clubs and you can really really tell when someone is a genuine reader versus looking for something commercial.
Thao Thai (06:55)
I agree. I agree. I think that she has amazing taste and her team is just the best in the game.
Amy Clark (07:09)
Yes. Well, how did the writing process then end up looking different or the same from your first book?
Thao Thai (07:18)
Oh Amy, the writing process could not be more different. So I don't know if you know this, but The Seekers of Deer Creek was supposed to be published in 2024, the year after Banyan Moon was published. And as we now see, it's 2026. So quite a lot of time has passed and it's because it took me a really long time to find the story.
So with Banyan Moon, I think a lot of people say this about debut books, they end up being the writers most personal books, you know, they're the ones that sort of simmer inside of you for a long time, the ones that kind of burst out because they've been germinating, you know, they've been shaping in your heart and then they get to fly into the world and that was certainly the case for Banyan Moon. I wrote it in sort of this I almost want to say a trance state and the writing, it wasn't that it was easy, but it felt like it came with this sense of complete urgency. I needed to get the story down. I knew these women so intimately. I've been thinking about them for so long in some form or another.
And so when it came time to write The Seekers of Deer Creek, what actually happened was that I sold it along with my romance novel as part of a two book deal. And I signed the deal shortly after Banyan Moon was published. So what I sent was a synopsis and the first 50 pages. And sometimes I'll look back at those first 50 pages now, now at the very end of this book process. And at most, I think I might see one or two sentences that have stayed from those first 50 pages. And the synopsis could not be more different.
When I first conceived of The Seekers of Deer Creek, I was imagining something that felt a lot more like a thriller. And it was a lot more contemporary. It talked a lot about art crime and AI, artificial intelligence, and it had a totally different shape and rhythm. And so when I finally did find this story, which took a really long time, I found that the book had morphed so much from the original synopsis and I think what made the process both tricky and both incredibly gratifying was the fact that it was able to break from the constraints of what I had originally conceived it to be. And it's become its own thing and something that is so special and so meaningful to me now.
Amy Clark (10:00)
Wow, okay, I have so many questions about this because I think you are one of the first people to come and talk about this. So this will be great for all of our listeners to hear. When you, so did you have a two book deal? Is that what you had? And then you were working on your next book and that's why, or you were planning to sell on the synopsis of what you had given your agent.
Thao Thai (10:03)
Yes. No, so I sold Banyan Moon as a one-book deal, and then the two-book deal came afterward when I was selling The Seekers of Deer Creek and the romance novel that was published. So it was, yeah, it was something I sold on synopsis, and I always say now, at the end of it, I always tell myself, I will never do that again, because I think some authors do great with that sort of deadline and that cadence and that rhythm, but for me I've learned that if I know somebody is expecting something from me it doesn't come out the way it's supposed to. It feels immediately as if I've clamped it inside of a terrarium, you know, and it can't grow beyond that, the size of it. And so it becomes really difficult for me to let the story lead. I begin to exert too much control over it and it, you know, in the end it all comes to the same, the story wins.
Amy Clark (11:25)
Oh my gosh, yeah, I can totally understand why that might happen. I guess when you can't produce the book that the original intent is, how did that look behind the scenes with your team and how do you feel like they helped you foster maybe the new idea that you landed on?
Thao Thai (11:36)
Mm-hmm. They were incredible. So I actually went through three editors for this book. So I had my acquiring editor and then she left and then I had another editor and she also left and then I had my third and they were all so extraordinary in different ways. They brought a different sensibility and a different sort of wisdom in terms of my career as a writer. So I will say whatever constraints I felt for the book and what it should be were completely self-imposed.
I felt so wedded to what I had promised the publishers this sort of like thriller like book dealt with AI and sort of art crime that I was not allowing myself to see what it could be and it was actually my editors that stepped in and said you know what I think that you need to think about what kind of writer you are instead of what kind of writer you might think you should be and when I expressed, know, I'm trying so hard to fulfill, you know, what I promised in this synopsis, they very immediately told me, forget the synopsis. Who cares? Who cares? The book is what it is. We are investing in you, the writer, not this brief that you've given us.
And so you need to honor that, who you are as a person, who you are as a creative. And with those words, I felt just such sudden lightning. I felt good. I don't have to write about AI because I don't actually care about AI. And I don't have to write about crime because I can't even wrap my head around the police procedural and legal aspect of it, you know? And so I got to finally shed the things that I thought I should be doing and focus on the things I love, which is characters and setting and scene and the art. And once I got that permission from them and gave that permission to myself, the book became what it was always meant to be, which is a story about sisterhood and a story about art and the stories that move us.
Amy Clark (13:59)
I love this. Well, one thing I feel like it sits so well with your first book that it makes sense to me. So the idea that you were doing something absolutely different is so fascinating, you know, and knowing that that isn't really where you are. And you know, the thing about AI, while there was, think just like when the pandemic was happening and I wanted to read a lot of books about the Spanish flu, let's say for example, or, you know, try to escape into there was a season to which I was really wanting to read a lot of stories about AI and now I'm so turned off by everything. It's just an ick in general and you know I just wonder if you would even know when you were going to come out with it how people would be feeling about that you know and if that would just the word AI would give someone the ick.
Thao Thai (14:35)
Yes, I think we're experiencing something similar right now with sort of this influx of tradwife books and sort of this topic about gender conformity and all this. I think it's just that things, we germinate things in a space where we're thinking about kind of the same topics as a society, so it makes sense that a lot of books will come out that circle around the same ideas.
Amy Clark (15:00)
Yes!
Thao Thai (15:22)
I didn't know what people would feel. I think that if it had been published a few years ago when it was intended to be published, we might not feel the same fatigue. I think it might have been a little more, sort of, it would have been welcomed a little more. But I guess this goes to show that you really cannot chase the hook of a topic. I know, hook has become everything in publishing, for better or for worse. And one thing I've learned about myself as a writer is that I just need to remain true to my particular obsessions, even if they're not trendy at the moment, even if nobody else seems to care at the moment because trends and hooks, come and go, but it's really the story and the longevity of the characters and the relationships that make something stick in a person's mind.
Amy Clark (16:17)
Yeah, and those are the books I feel like that will be timeless. Personally, I think this speaks more to the timeless nature of this. There's nothing in this book that 10 years from now you wouldn't be able to pick up and find something that you relate to or the experience is so very human, I think. You know, one thing I was thinking about, you know, you are one of my favorite people to read because your prose is so lush. It is so interesting. You always give me new words to look up and I always find myself highlighting things. And I'm wondering what kinds of new language you found yourself using for this especially in this book around art.
Thao Thai (16:59)
Thank you so much. That's very kind. Language is incredibly important to me, and I think it is for most writers, probably, but it's part of the spell of the book. And if you don't have the voice right, if you don't have the vocabulary correct, then it can very quickly tear a reader away. And so I was especially conscious of this as somebody who does not work in art, but who studied art and who has, you know, sort of an amateur's enthusiasm for art. I wanted to really honor this world by using language that Vivi, one of the main characters who is an art conservator, the language that she would have used, the language that Calla would have used, what makes sense in their world and their reckoning because language at its very heart is the thing that shapes our perception of the things outside of us and what lies within us as well. It gives a shape to the stories of our lives.
I couldn't be generic in terms of the way I was describing the art, the way I was describing the work, especially not since embedded within the story are also journal entries from an artist. So it was an incredible process trying to figure out what it is that all these characters thought about and how it is that they conceived of themselves and their work. And it was immensely gratifying. learned so much, of course, but I also learned something about the way that my own language shapes the world around me. And it's just been one of those processes that unfurls understanding in the most magical way.
Amy Clark (18:48)
I love this. Well, I have to ask before we really get into the plot, I know that, you know, it's been years, a few years now that you've been in this publishing industry and we've been asking our seasoned writers to come back and tell us a little bit about how these past few years have gone in publishing, what you see shifting and maybe what you're noticing lately, especially maybe in the literary fiction space when you you have had these few years, even though it's doesn't seem like a long time. Publishing is moving really fast right now.
Thao Thai (19:23)
Absolutely. I think it moves by the day so that sometimes, you know, the things that I would have counted as certainties a few months ago I feel like are less certain now. And in a way, it's very exciting. It can be at its best a democratic process in which the reader's motivations and interests sort of propel the industry. I think that can be very exciting. I do find that, and this, I don't know that I would even count this as a negative. It's just a change.
I find that people are more focused on than ever on the hook sort of the premise you know what it is the one-liner the elevator pitch that that draws you in and I think we're looking for this kind of quick interesting sound bite that immediately breaks through the noise because that is one of the things that's changed. feel like there is an abundance of books and stories and perspectives and again that could be so rich but it can also be intimidating for both the reader and the writer because there is so much to sift through these days and it can be harder in some ways to find the story that you want to read and the story you want to tell because there are so many voices in the space. And so I do understand this need for hook and the thing that pulls you in. But sometimes the stories that have excited me the most are the ones that have a quieter premise. Recently, speaking of art books, read this book called Almost Life and it's, have you read it Amy?
Amy Clark (21:03)
Yeah, I haven't read it yet, but everyone is talking about it. It's like a beautiful sapphic romance, right? Is that what I'm thinking of? Okay.
Thao Thai (21:09)
It is, it's beautiful. It's set in Paris. One of the characters is an art scholar. And so it's just very transporting. But, you know, when you're thinking about the premise of a book like that, you know, a love story set across several decades, you think, I've heard this before. And of course you have, but you haven't heard it in exactly this way. And with this kind of specificity of language and setting and the filter of art and creativity and youth, it's just something that is so impossible to capture in an elevator pitch, right? And so if I had been driven only by hook, I would have missed out on something so incredible. And I can think of a million stories like that, Claire Keegan's stories, which are small and quiet, you know? And so that is one of the changes I've detected.
I don't know if this is actually related, but on the other side too, on the sort of like publishing day-to-day world, there is a ton of turnover. As I mentioned before, I went through three editors and I think, you know, that is not at all the fault of the people working at these institutions. They're hardworking, they're loyal, they're incredibly passionate about their jobs. But I don't know that, you know, we are paying people enough and incentivizing them enough to stay. And so, the idea of this long standing editor-writer relationship, the kind we used to get maybe, you know 30, 40 years ago, it feels like it's more rare that you stick with an editor throughout your career, that they nurture and invest in you as a writer. And so I think these two things together are creating really interesting dynamics in publishing that we'll see play out in the next few years.
Amy Clark (23:05)
Yeah, I mean from the flip side as someone who's reviewing books and picking people for our show, I have that same experience where sometimes my point of connection to that author, it gets dropped midway. That book may fall off my radar because I've lost the person who is my thread to that book or the person that would be nudging me like, hey, you know, this book is coming out. Would you like a copy? Those kinds of things.
But also I would say to the hook because you're coming so late in the summer I feel I can be very transparent this was the hardest year I think for finding something that actually landed the plane because there were so many great gimmicky brilliant honestly hooks but then the books were incredibly uneven they did not actually you know get to that ending that that gratifying place with the story and I think that also is starting to show on the other side when we get those finished books. You know there were incredible elevator pitches and then I get these books and they were disappointing. Many of them were very disappointing and this was honestly of all the years that I've been doing this and like screening specifically for these types of guides this was my hardest year.
Thao Thai (24:34)
I, you know, it's interesting you say that because as a reader, I find too that I, sometimes I miss the days when you could just stumble across a book in a bookstore and have never heard of it because now working in the industry, and I'm sure it's the same for you, we hear about the books months beforehand. They sort of build up and so in a way the surprise gets taken away, right? You don't have that discovery piece that you used to, or it's more rare that you do. So yeah, I don't know what to make of it because on the one hand it's such a blessing to have teams that work to give our books visibility and for people to be talking about them beforehand.
But on the other I miss the sense that I used to have as a kid in the library where you would just go to a shelf and there would be a lot fewer books. So you would just kind of say, I haven't read this and I'm going to give it a try. And, my attention span hasn't been shot by TikTok. So I'm going to sit here for, you know, 50 pages and give it a try. So, yeah, I think we're all feeling a little nostalgic about things these days.
Amy Clark (25:46)
Yeah, and the thing about it is, and we can get to your book after this, it's just fun to talk shop a little bit, but, you know, I don't even know if there's a need for a guide anymore. And that was my poll this year is, is it even helpful to you? You know, the review copies are going out so early to people. So people have already formed an opinion. Usually before that book even comes out, you know, these early reviews are coming out like six months beforehand and people are telling us their thoughts.
And I already have an idea of whether that book is going to work or not. I just, you know, deeply desire to curate something that matters and these takes so so much effort. You know, I've been reading since December, but then you know, by the time summer comes out, I'm like, this book hasn't even come out yet. But I've already fully formed an opinion on this book. And this book has been in my world for almost a year at this point, you know, so it's just really, really interesting. And there's so much coming at us that it can be so difficult. So I don't know, it's something that I'm thinking a lot about but then when we ask the readers you know is this even helpful anymore if you like my specific taste it is helpful you know so but you have to like my specific taste for it to be a helpful guide I guess.
Thao Thai (26:58)
Right? Sure. Well, thankfully we all do and I would trust your taste implicitly.
Amy Clark (27:09)
Well, for writers, you think, who are trying to break into this space, what advice would you give about building a sustainable career?
Thao Thai (27:19)
That's a great question. I think honestly, my chief advice and something that I've been saying a lot lately is that you need to think in terms of craft versus career. So I have had writers approach me before they've even finished their first draft and ask about things like, How do you get health insurance as a writer? And I'm completely sympathetic to the idea of needing to make a living, needing to figure out the shape of your life as a writer. I understand the practicalities. But what is imperative is that the craft comes first. And what that means is reading so much, taking workshops if you can, being among other writers, sharing your work, getting feedback from editors, and really focusing on the sentence level work that you're doing. You know, stories are such precious things and as writers we are the holders of those stories for the literary space at least.
We need to honor our characters by learning how to paint them in terms that are most illuminating, that are most complex. And so I feel like you don't, I don't think you have to go to an MFA program. I don't think you have to do any of that. But I do think you have to work so hard and you have to fail and you have to know when to put a draft away and you have to be patient. Oh my god, you have to be patient. If this book has taught me anything, it's that you cannot turn something out and try to sort of hitch onto the wagon of trends. You just need to really sit with yourself and understand what it is you want from the story and what it is the characters want you to be doing and to remain so incredibly faithful to that even with all the other distractions.
I think there is something I've been feeling lately in that writers are becoming more platformists, you know, they have followers and they are making these beautiful videos and they are sort of micro influencers in their own right especially the ones that have a specific style and aesthetic and I think that's wonderful because it connects writers and readers But at the same time we can't forget that that is the lifestyle right? That is just the curtain on top of everything what's underneath the real work of it. It's so unglamorous and it is so frustrating and it is so incredibly rich and beautiful and painful. And I just, if I could tell any new writer that it is to really listen to that piece of it and to try to block out the rest, the curtain drapings, the career, the followers, the reviews, all of that. It's just craft at the end of the day. It's just you and your craft.
Amy Clark (30:26)
This is so good. I love talking to you about this. Now I get to talk to you about this book specifically.
I loved this story and you know that I think this book is incredible and you know I feel like I can see the growth on the page and I want to get into a little bit because these books do seem to be in conversation with each other even though that wasn't the original intent of your project you were planning to do something different. In this book we also have Vietnamese history. We have finding something like a found artifact in the family that you're kind of working with. So I'm wondering, did research lead you to this story or did emotion lead you towards the history that you wanted to explore in this novel?
Thao Thai (31:15)
I would say the emotion came first. So I came up with this idea quite a long time ago. I was, and I remember exactly the place it came to me. There was a time in my daughter's young life where she was absolutely obsessed with hide and seek. So she would want to this epic, these epic games that lasted for hours. And I think she was, you know, four or five at the time. So this was, you know, five years ago, but at one point I was hiding and I was hiding in our tiny little laundry room and I was thinking about, you know, what is it that makes hide and seek so fun for children? And I came to the conclusion that it is just as much about the process of hiding as it is the sort of revelation of being found. So that dichotomy between, obscuring yourself, but also that magic and that sense of relief when somebody flings open the door and says, I see you.
There's something very deeply embedded in the experience of childhood, but also the experience of what it's like to be a human in the world, right? We, in so many ways, are sort of flitting from the view of other people, hiding our vulnerabilities, our hearts. But the moment when somebody sees through all that and says, you know, there you are, that moment is unlike any other. That's love, or a form of it.
So as I was sitting there in that laundry room thinking all these deep thoughts and listening to my daughter patting her feet outside the door, I was also thinking, what if there are these two girls that are having this moment of hide and seek in their childhood. It's a game. It's this game that has high stakes because they're hiding from something, from some darkness in their lives. But then what if the game never stops? And it's a game that continues throughout adulthood. so for years, I sort of mulled over this concept of hide and seek and two sisters who are constantly evading each other and then grasping one another only to slip away again.
And nothing really sort of clinched the story together until I realized one day, I realized, they're artists. That's what it is. They're artists. And they are looking for themselves and each other in their work and the work of others. And that is the thing that is going to propel the story forward. And the moment I came up with that art piece was the moment where everything fell together and I could see them. I could see their journey. I could see what it was they wanted so desperately because at every heart of a story is a desire that's undeniable and for these two sisters it's their pursuit of art.
Amy Clark (34:13)
I love this. Well, first of all, I don't know if I was thinking anything deeply when I played hide and seek with my kids. So already impressed by you as a mom that you're using this time, but that just goes to show like the writer's mind is never quiet. We're always looking for inspiration in those places. And I love that this book has that, you know, embedded within it and that it came from something, know, so innocent, but led to a story that feels so fulfilling in this book.
I know that this also has like the inherited secrets and you know the stories that we're told versus the stories that we live. What do you think sets this book apart from your first?
Thao Thai (34:54)
Well, I think it is, first of all, a story about sisters so on its surface, it's a different sort of story. It's also, I think, it is a little more ambitious in terms of the scope because it covers a much longer frame of time. I think the beginning of the story begins in the year 1900. That's the year one of the characters is born and it goes all the way up to I believe it's 2022. So it's over a century that you're trying to capture in a book and it jumps through a lot of locations. So it begins in the woods of Wisconsin. Then we're in Chicago. We end up at some point in an estate in France and then we make our way back to Vietnam where the story sort of is rooted.
And so in terms of what it's trying to do, I think the book is reaching a little farther. I think too the element of art and vocation and passion is more tightly interlaced. Banyan Moon, it's always going to be such a dear story to me. It's a story of three women, but in some ways The Seekers of Deer Creek is a story about women in art and sort of the wide reaching consequences of what it means to love something that for so many years has been barred in some way or another to a group of people. The history of women in art has been so obscured. And so, yeah, I think it's just the ambition of the book and the scope.
Amy Clark (36:41)
Well I would completely agree. You know, I want to get into especially the art aspect of it. Vivi is working as an art conservator, which is a profession I think I didn't really know a lot about. I mean, I have seen a few documentaries or there have been elements of that weaved into some other like art, you know, movies that I've seen, but I'm wondering what kind of research you had to do to really understand that world and maybe what fascinated you most about the idea of preserving art.
Thao Thai (37:12)
Absolutely. So interestingly, because this book has morphed so much, Vivi went through a number of different careers before she became a conservator. So at first she was an archivist. So she was the one organizing the paperwork. And she always worked in a museum, but she changed careers. And then for a time she was a curator. So she was the one organizing the exhibition.
And then when I figured out that she's a conservator, that really became sort of the implicit irony that helped me find her voice and her place because as a conservator what you're doing is you're preserving works of art and making sure that they can last through the ravages of time and often it's incredibly minute work, it's invisible work, you know, a successful conservator does their job when no one knows they've been there. When you look at the piece and you don't see a line between the past and the present because they have so well cleaned the work, restored the work, made sure that it contains a wholeness. And so you are the invisible agent in some ways, but it's also incredibly high stakes work.
I don't know if you've seen some of the stories in the past of these conservators that have gotten a little exuberant in their work. So what they'll do is they'll do the overpainting, which is restoring the paint that's left off by adding new paint and matching it as closely as the original. But they forget that their work is to be invisible. They become instead an artist. And so they can ruin these really great works, these frescoes that have been around for centuries, you know, these paintings that have survived world wars and they've come in and repainted them in such a way that you can't help but see the hand and that is the thing. That is so fascinating to me how how it can go wrong and how when it goes right you don't even know it's happened you know maybe that too is a part of preserving the stories of the past, you know, on a wider scale that we're able to maintain a fidelity, if not to the exact events, then the motion of the thing, the core of the thing.
And so in terms of research, I went down some really winding paths and I, this is the most research I'd done for a book so far. And it was so incredibly gratifying to see how generous people in the art world are. So I reached out to my local museums and art organizations and I spoke to curators who then introduced me to other people and it's just it's this wide-ranging network where people are so passionate about their work and they want to talk about what they've handled and what they've seen in their time.
I actually ended up talking with somebody who works in the Netherlands, an art investigator, and he used to work for the FBI and now his work is in repatriating art that was stolen or lost when the Nazis came to power in Europe. Art can capture so much of the world in terms of both its history, but also its preoccupations. know, what we care about as people, what we want to save, what we're willing to let go of. It's sort of like this capsule: that piece of art is a capsule that can capture the violence and the investment of humans.
And also, of course, their hope, their love, their beauty, all those things. What's interesting is for the first time, my husband was actually quite actively involved in the research process. He works in insurance. And for a time, he worked with high value art, so classic art pieces that people would insure that his clients would insure And so he introduced me to somebody who worked in appraising art. And she then introduced me to this greater network of people who work in making sure that the art is protected and preserved and that it sort of maintains its value throughout the year. So that was a really interesting perspective as well. And then of course, I read so many books. I read so many books and there are tons of books about women in art specifically and their place within this canon of mostly male-dominated artists for a really long time.
Amy Clark (41:57)
I love it. When did you know you were done researching it?
Thao Thai (42:00)
I don't know, I sometimes don't feel like I'm done still. We were talking before this interview started about the Met Gala and how Madonna referenced the surrealist painter Dorothea Tanning's work in her ensemble. And so I think even now I'm coming up with things just in my daily life that inform the way I think about the book. The book is done, it's done and dusted. But I think in terms of how I talk to people and how readers and I communicate about the book. I think I'm still probably still learning.
Amy Clark (42:32)
Yeah, I love that so much. Well one big component to this is it's a sister story. Thao, do you have a sister? I have to ask. Okay, so this is a longing for a sister. What did you want to explore in this dynamic?
Thao Thai (42:38)
Yes, I don't. I'm an only child. It's a longing. So I've always sort of had a deep-seated interest in sisterhood and I think it's you know being an only child You always long for what you don't have as you said there's this yearning for a companion somebody who can be at your side through the travails of life.
And so I think from an early age I was reading a lot of books about sisters. I was reading books like Little Women, the Sweet Valley Twins, you know, books in which, Ramona and Beezus of course, in which sisterhood is really complicated sometimes. So I never thought sisterhood was simple. In fact, I think it might be one of the most complicated relationships that exists.
And as I grew up, I made friends frequently with women who were part of a sisterhood of some sort, who had sisters they were very close to, they may have been estranged from. And so from an anthropological perspective, I was very interested in what that could look like. And so when I was writing Vivi and Kala's Sisterhood, I knew very much that I did not want to write a general thesis about sisterhood because again, I'm not a sister. I'm only somebody who studies sisterhood very closely, but I wanted to write a portrait of their specific sisterhood. Who were these two women who grew up in this very specific way, in this setting, as Vietnamese immigrants, as artists, and it was really that sense that their sisterhood was something discreet and all their own that led the story and the craft.
Amy Clark (44:27)
I love that. Well, I know that one aspect of it, you know, for me is we have this eldest daughter energy, which is always my favorite because I am the oldest in my family in case that has not been dropped before. I am, I actually have a sister and a brother, so I've got to have two different kinds of experiences with my siblings. And yeah, there's just something really special, especially about sisters, because my sister and I were very close, but all of my siblings were spaced out. So I was five years older than my sister and eight years older than my brother. So I kind of was a mom to my brother versus like that sister dynamic which I got to have and it was so exciting when she came you know because it's like my gosh now I have a built-in friend. But there are challenges with sisters and I think you know especially in this story we have recovery, addiction, the responsibility of monitoring or watching out for your sister if they have fallen into addiction which you know can be really tough.
I'm wondering how you wanted to structure that balance without either sister becoming a villain in the story. Someone who is navigating addiction and could that slippery slope of going back into it, the hall monitor that another sister has to be, she's checking her breath, waiting for those smells to pop up. I just found that so telling within this relationship.
Thao Thai (45:56)
Thanks for the question. So I think I have enormous empathy for people on both sides of the equation. At a person who is struggling with addiction, as well as a person who loves an addict. I think in both cases it can be heartbreaking, it can be such a struggle, it can require such grace from both parties. And it was really important to me that it wasn't positioned as, Calla is this irresponsible person who sees the world in a horrible, misguided way. It just didn't feel true to what humans are and what they can be to each other. I wanted to make it clear that Calla is brilliant. She is soft and empathetic and charismatic and she teaches Vivi so many things and Vivi herself has so many strengths. She's dependable. She's reliable. She's a person who gets things done, but she's also incredibly flawed too and together they both hurt each other in different ways and they both healed each other in different ways too and so that sort of push-pull of it was important to me to capture.
I think what separates literary fiction maybe from other kinds of fiction is that there's no clear villain. There's never an antagonist that you don't understand. And I think that even if you don't like a person, you don't like one of your own characters, you can't write a character you don't understand. It doesn't work or you shouldn't maybe because then she feels flat. She feels like somebody who doesn't exist in your mind and your heart and Vivi and Calla are inside of me. They're my companions. I hear them. I know them. I know what they'll buy at a grocery store. I know what books they'll read. I know how they like to walk in the world, you know, and so you can't spend that much time with characters without finding a way to love them, both their flaws and their most redeeming qualities.
Amy Clark (48:13)
You can tell when writers don't like their characters. And I can tell that you love your characters. I mean, it really pours through on the page. And if it's unpleasant for the writer, it's also usually unpleasant for the reader.
Thao Thai (48:16)
Yes, you can.
And I think that was my struggle with my initial drafts of The Seekers of Deer Creek. I had a more, I guess a more classic villain character in there and she's not in there anyway now, yeah, she was so unpleasant to write and I was just like, I don't even care. I don't even care if she, you know, loses or wins or anything. And so it's such a breath of fresh air to love your characters.
Amy Clark (48:51)
Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, one thing that I always find in historical fiction, I feel like, you know, it's a reliable vehicle is to find something like whether that's an artifact, a painting. In this case, we have a journal that we're working with. And, you know, it's always fascinating to me because sometimes that can just land in a trope space. Like that's what I'm expecting in historical fiction. And I'm wondering how you wanted to use that vehicle in a new way so it doesn't feel like a trope in historical fiction or literary fiction.
Thao Thai (49:26)
You know, before you ask the question, I don't think I would have named it as even a trope, because for me, there are some things with a form that feel like embedded into it in so much so that it sort of transcends trope and it becomes like an archetype, right? It's sort of like part of the vehicle of bringing you from one place to the next, you know? With historical fiction that combines contemporary perspective, there has to be some link in some way. And for me as a reader and a writer, it feels so much more satisfying when it is an object, something concrete that you can really hold in your hands and contemplate, as opposed to something like I looked it up on Wikipedia, you know, which kind of exists in the ether in a different way. So I guess that is to say, quite honestly, I don't think I had a conscious reckoning with that idea of a trope because it just never really bothered me that much as a reader.
But I will say when I am thinking about, you know, all the archival documents within The Seekers of Deer Creek, and there are quite a lot actually, not just the journal entries, but there are museum placards, there are articles in art journals, there are letters and the artwork itself. And so it is very much a book about intertextuality. I think I wanted each piece to have earned its space. So I wanted it to feel as if it really mattered. So even if it was a three sentence art placard that describes a painting, there had to be something in there that leads the story forward that sort of zings in the mind of a character and transforms into some other piece of wisdom that unfurls down the road. so I guess if I were thinking about these artifacts in any way, it would be that they just really have to earn their place on the page.
Amy Clark (51:29)
I love that. I love talking about this with you. You know, it had never really occurred to me how often that is a vehicle in a story. I think I was talking to Linda Cohen Loigman and we were talking about one element of one of her historical fiction. I was like, you I'm like, how did you make it fresh? And I think what you're saying to me is how you made it fresh is that every single thing that we are given, it's moving plot or it's intended to do something versus it just being something that exists simply to be the thing that changes the story.
Thao Thai (52:05)
Yes, yeah I think so and I think also it has to say something about the characters too. For example, some of the letters that are written, there has to be something in the letter that shows character, that tells you something more about how they see the world, sort of what they notice, how they conceive of narrative, all that too has to be embedded in the actual writing.
Amy Clark (52:27)
Now we're talking in May and we're getting way ahead of the story, but do you know who your audiobook narrator is or how they're approaching this?
Thao Thai (52:36)
I do not know how they're approaching this. So my audiobook narrator will be Quyen Ngo, who I've never worked with before, but I'm very excited to. She narrates a ton of audiobooks by Vietnamese authors, and I love that because, there is obviously the shared history, but also in terms of getting the language right and the pronunciations, I know that she'll do a phenomenal job, much better than I will myself.
So yeah, I don't know. I haven't heard any clips yet, so I don't know what the approach will be, but if it's anything like the rest of her work, it's going to be incredibly emotional, transportive, and just very much rooted in the context of the story, and that is something I'm so excited for readers to experience.
Amy Clark (53:29)
Well, I'm excited for readers to experience it. And, it's very hard because I want to talk about different elements. We won't talk about it here on the main show because we don't want to spoil anything, but there are some gentle twists in the story that are so satisfying. And I would love to hear if you could come up with a dream book club conversation. What would you like to see readers discussing from this special book?
Thao Thai (53:54)
That's such a great question. You know, I think what I want readers to be discussing amongst themselves is honestly the role of art in their own lives and their own past. Because I think sometimes we think of art as something that exists in museums, you know, something that exists in sort of a rarefied space, in a white gallery with a hush around. But the truth is art is in us everywhere. It is in the music we listen to. It is in the gardening we do, food we cook for each other, the photographs we have on our walls.
And I'll even go further and I will say, I think every single person has an artist within them. It might not be visual art, it might not be storytelling, and it might not be something that they've even yet found within themselves. But I think that if there is some magic, some stardust that exists inside humans as a whole, it's that we are capable of this creation that is so unique to who we are as individuals that is so specifically tied to our context and our world. And I would love readers to, even if they're not discussing it with others, to begin thinking with themselves, where does the artist in me live? And how can I send her into the world because honestly, Amy, this world is so hard and I sometimes think the only thing that will ever be able to save it is if we can each find the artist inside ourselves.
Amy Clark (55:36)
I'm with you on that. And I only want to be around interesting people who consume art, are as mesmerized by art as I am, that want to talk about art. Yeah, I feel like this is all we have right now. It's like the one hope I'm gonna hinge on as well. And I just love this story so very much. I dread even asking you, are you still going to be writing romance? What are you doing now? Now that this project is going to be going in the world are you just savoring this because you've earned it?
Thao Thai (56:08)
What am I working on next? Is that the question, Amy? I like that question. Thank you. It's always fun to talk about your work in progress. My next book is a literary fiction novel, and I'm actually putting on the finishing touches before sending it to my agent. So she'll take a look and hopefully we'll get it in submission at some point. But it's very different than these two. I think these.
Banyan Moon and The Seekers of Deer Creek, feel like companion books in a way. Different, very different, yet, you know, tied by the past and legacy. And my third book, my third Thao Thai book, also has that element, but it is so far-flung, and it sort of plays a little bit with the genre, with the Gothic genre specifically. So it's been really fun to write, and it's been really fun to immerse myself in the world and it's probably the most immersive book out of all the ones I've written. So I'm so excited to tell you all more about that when it gains some shape, but yeah, that's what I'm working on.
Amy Clark (57:14)
Okay, I didn't even want to ask because this one was such a struggle for you. I'm like do I even ask her? She just needs a break. She needs to chill out, but I'm
Thao Thai (57:21)
No, I'm excited.
Amy Clark (57:21)
So happy to hear there's another book already in the works for people that is so exciting for readers like me. Well, we always end our show the same way, which is asking what you're feeling proud of, whether it's with this project or with life in general. But it also gives me a chance to say, I love spending time with you. I always learn something new. You always bring the best, like impeccable reading recommendations. And I was so grateful that you took a chance on the show because I think it was very, very early even doing something like this and I had asked you and you know it means so much to me when writers take a risk on the show because you never know what you're gonna get you know in exchange for that and it has been so wonderful to be your friend and follow all the adventures with your career.
Thao Thai (58:10)
Same here, Amy. I can't tell you how good it is to be around somebody who loves books and authors and readers as much as you do, but also somebody who can just talk so precisely about the industry at large. I think you and I have very similar sensibilities and we kind of look at the same way and so it just feels really nice to have that kindred energy between us. Thank you for all your kind words.
I think the thing I'm most proud about with The Seekers of Deer Creek is that I was eventually able to release control. It's a lesson that I am constantly learning as a human in my personal life just as a parent, as a wife, as a friend, but I learned it over and over again with The Seekers of Deer Creek. Each time I tried to wrangle the story and tug it into the direction I felt it should go in, it wouldn't cooperate and it shouldn't have because that was not what it was meant to be. And so I, it can be really scary to let go of the reins of something, especially if, like me, you came from a corporate world where you're used to certain procedures and deadlines and outcomes. It was a leap. The Seekers of Deer Creek was the biggest leap of my career. And when I landed where I did, this place of incredible beauty and fulfillment, I was so happy that I finally learned how to release myself from my own mind.
Amy Clark (59:51)
It's a good lesson for all of us. We are all learning today. I mean, there's not anybody who's probably listening that hasn't tried to force something into where it needed to be and
Thao Thai (59:55)
Yes. Yes.
Amy Clark (1:00:02)
We're so lucky that you just allowed it to blossom into what it is. I love just discovering that this came from something so innocent as a game of hide and seek and then blossomed out from there. Thao this has been such a joy and listeners, if you are a subscriber, it's only $5 a month and it keeps our show independent and commercial free and gives space to writers like Thao to tell their stories. You can join me over on the other side of the paywall and we are going to get into the spoiler section of this special book. Thank you so much, Thao.
Thao Thai (1:00:35)
Yay! Thank you, Amy.
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