Amy DuBois Barnett draws on her editorial career for If I Ruled the World—a vibrant novel of magazine publishing, ambition, and reinvention in 1990s media.
Amy DuBois Barnett draws on her editorial career for If I Ruled the World—a vibrant novel of magazine publishing, ambition, and reinvention in 1990s media.
I’m honored to warmly welcome Amy DuBois Barnett to Book Gang as she shares the story behind her debut novel, If I Ruled the World. Drawing on her groundbreaking career in magazine publishing, Amy brings us a vibrant, sometimes gritty, and always honest exploration of ambition, identity, and reinvention in 1990s print media.
Today we explore Amy’s decades-in-the-making fiction journey, what inspired her to finally tell this story, and how her editorial background influenced her process as a novelist.
If I Ruled the World follows Nikki, a thirty-something woman navigating the cutthroat world of late-90s print media after bravely reporting a powerful colleague’s misconduct. As she hustles to revive a struggling hip hop magazine, Nikki’s journey is marked by career chaos, personal missteps, and a search for her true voice amid shifting alliances and expectations.
With wit and candor, Amy unpacks the complexities of identity, representation, and legacy as she crafts a story that is both an insider’s look at magazine publishing and a deeply personal tale of transformation.
In this week’s fascinating episode, we discuss:
📚 The Writing Journey: Amy shares how she made history as the first Black woman to helm a major mainstream U.S. magazine and how decades in editorial shaped her fiction. We discuss why writing this debut novel in her fifties was the perfect moment, and celebrating that long-awaited “yes.”
📚 Representation & Identity: We talk about Amy’s trailblazing career and how this experience shaped her leadership, and what she borrowed from her own life to bring Nikki’s biggest triumphs and trials to life in this story.
📚 Building a Magazine: Step inside the electric world of 1990s magazine publishing—where iconic covers were gambles, backstage drama was real, and Nikki’s story was born from Amy’s lived experience. Amy shares a high-stakes celebrity cover story that blurred the lines between art and life, plus her perspective on the reckoning in hip hop she witnessed firsthand in this #metoo moment.
FREE BONUS BOOK LIST: 13 Books About Magazines to Light Up Your Analog Heart— This curated list dives into the page-turning, messy, and fascinating world of magazines, both real and fictional. Patrons will receive a printable book list and an exclusive spoiler-filled episode with Amy DuBois Barnett!
Meet Amy DuBois Barnett
Amy DuBois Barnett is an award-winning media executive and author who earned national acclaim as editor in chief of Honey, Ebony, and Teen People—where she made history as the first Black woman to helm a major mainstream U.S. magazine—and as deputy editor in chief of Harper’s Bazaar. She has held senior leadership roles at Paramount, Hearst, Disney, Time Inc., and several independently owned brands. Barnett has a BA from Brown University and an MFA in creative writing from Columbia University. She resides in Los Angeles. If I Ruled the World is her debut novel and is available on store shelves now.
NEW BOOK LIST: 13 Books About Magazines to Light Up Your Analog Heart (FREE TO BROWSE ON PATREON THIS WEEK)
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2026 MomAdvice Book Club Books (All 12 Selections)
Daughters of Shandong by Eve J. Chung
Inside the Creation of Daughters of Shandong with Eve J. Chung (Book Gang Podcast)
If I Ruled the World by Amy DuBois Barnett
The Devil Wears Prada by Lauren Weisberger
The Other Black Girl by Zakiya Dalila Harris
Daisy Jones and The Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid
Queenie by Candice Carty-Williams
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Book Gang Podcast Transcript:
Amy DuBois Barnett (00:00)
Hi, I'm Amy Du Bois Barnett and I am the author of If I Ruled the World, my debut novel after a 25 plus year career in media.
Amy’s Warm Intro: Hey, Book Gang! I am so excited to welcome Amy DuBois Barnett to our book stack this week—a true trailblazer whose lived experience in magazine publishing makes her debut novel, If I Ruled the World, one of my favorite reads of the summer.
Already slated for a Hulu adaptation, Barnett, the first African American woman to helm a mainstream magazine, draws on her rich life as an editor to bring readers a behind-the-scenes pass to the 1990s, where a twenty-something woman finds her voice and place in the world in this grown-up coming-of-age story that will be a massive hit with fans of The Devil Wears Prada and Queenie.
The story’s spicy start brings Nikki to its center—a woman in the thick of the aftermath of being coerced into a sexual relationship by a powerful colleague. When she bravely reports him to HR, she’s met with a shocking twist: other women step forward to share similar stories, but instead of support, Nikki is scapegoated and blamed for his downfall. Alonzo, the man in question, is not only connected but vengeful. His menacing warning, “You had better hope our paths don’t cross again,” haunts Nikki as she navigates the tight-knit, cutthroat world of late-1990s print media, where reputations are easily ruined, and alliances shift overnight.
Alonzo is well-connected and determined to make Nikki pay, which leads her to take a six-month trial position at Sugar, a struggling hip hop music and lifestyle magazine that desperately needs to turn a profit. What she doesn’t discover until after accepting the position is that this six-month timeline isn’t only for her, but that this publication will fold as well.
If you’re the kind of reader who craves a true insider’s perspective on magazine publishing, this book delivers in spades. Barnett invites us right into the chaos where Nikki and her colleagues hustle to book up-and-coming celebrities for splashy covers, place bets on which indie artists will break big, and brainstorm the next cultural wave months before it becomes mainstream. Through it all, we watch Nikki’s transformation as she hones her editorial instincts and begins crafting her own distinct voice that forges a true connection with her readers and gradually builds its own devoted following.
Barnett’s storytelling doesn’t shy away from the complexities of the hip-hop world or the unique challenges Black women face as they navigate its spaces. As Nikki goes deeper into the music scene—interviewing stars, attending late-night parties, and witnessing the real power dynamics at play—she’s confronted with hard truths about representation in this industry. These experiences force Nikki to reexamine her own journey, surfacing memories and realizations that help her make sense of her past and give words to experiences she never fully understood.
Readers should be ready for a front-row seat to her missteps and self-discovery. Barnett doesn’t spare us any of the grit or awkwardness that comes with piecing together a new identity after hitting rock bottom.
In an interview with Forbes, Amy shared, "I wanted this woman (Nikki), who is obviously incredibly ambitious and wants all these things, not just to have a straight line to success with a romance story in the background. Instead, I wanted to acknowledge that, along the way, she would make mistakes. She was going to alienate her friends inadvertently. She was going to make mistakes as she looked for love and in her job. I was hoping that when you get to the end of the book, you realize that she comes into her own power when she has confidence in herself and in her own voice. That is something that we can all relate to."
There’s an infectious energy to Nikki’s journey that kept me turning the pages, and I can’t wait to share this incredibly special interview with an icon in her own right as we discuss her time in print media and this midlife transition to novel writing.
To celebrate Amy’s novel, I’ve curated a special book list—free to browse on Patreon—spotlighting 13 books about magazines to light up your analog heart. This has a juicy mix of fictional fun, biographies, and memoirs from those in the industry. Patrons receive a printable list and a spoiler-filled episode with Amy in their inbox today to thank you today for your support.
If you’re new here, hi! I’m Amy Allen Clark, the voice behind the Book Gang podcast. This show celebrates debuts, backlist favorites, and under-the-radar book gems. As I continue my full immersion in the 2026 Summer Reading Guide, I’m thrilled to shine a spotlight on yet another standout from my favorite picks.
Summer is not over, and this special guide is available for purchase and features 70 handpicked titles—upcoming releases, buzzy debuts, and new-to-me backlist treasures—across 57 pages to help you build your perfect summer stack. It’s an instant download for $7, and every purchase helps keep the lights on at Book Gang.
This month’s book club selection is Daughters of Shandong by Eve J. Chung. You can deep dive into Eve Chung’s family story and writing journey as she crafted this gripping historical fiction novel on the podcast by visiting the link in today’s show notes for a spoiler-free conversation. Don’t forget, you can join our warm, multigenerational book club on July 30th at 8 PM ET on Zoom. Membership is just $5 a month, with a 10% discount for annual signups, and will give you access to everything we have discussed today.
Now, let’s meet this week’s guest: Amy DuBois Barnett is an award-winning media executive and author who earned national acclaim as editor-in-chief of Honey, Ebony, and Teen People—where she made history as the first Black woman to helm a major mainstream U.S. magazine—and as deputy editor-in-chief of Harper’s Bazaar. She has held senior leadership roles at Paramount, Hearst, Disney, Time Inc., and several independently owned brands. Barnett has a BA from Brown University and an MFA in creative writing from Columbia University. She resides in Los Angeles. If I Ruled the World is her debut novel and is available on store shelves now.
If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving a review on iTunes—it’s a quick, free way to show your support. And to our patrons: you’re the real cover stars—empowered, analog trailblazers championing the arts when the world’s gone full digital chaos. Thank you for keeping real stories—and real storytellers in a world turned upside down by AI. Now, let’s get chatting!
(transition music)
Amy Clark (00:11)
Amy, it's so wonderful to have you here. I have already told our readers all about this book and why I wanted to add it to everyone's catalog this year for the summer. I want to start out with just a little icebreaker that I think will be fun because your world is obviously very exciting to someone who's in the Midwest and is not around anyone that exciting celebrity wise. I would love to hear, do you have a favorite celebrity moment that still makes you smile after all these years in media?
Amy DuBois Barnett (00:44)
My gosh, a favorite celebrity moment. Ooh, that's such a good question. You know, when I was the editor in chief of Honey Magazine, I gave Beyonce her first ever solo cover. So just categorically as a celebrity moment, I think it's like amazing, but also the shoot was so cool. I mean, she is a lovely person. I got to know Miss Tina, her mom during the process and just interacting with Miss Tina and Beyonce herself who is just like kind and sweet and just by the way in person freakishly beautiful like with skin like a peach I mean really it was an amazing day
Amy Clark (01:25)
My gosh, well that definitely would be topping my list too. I really, really loved this book. I want to get into a little bit of how this has been decades in the making for you and what made you finally tell this story. Can you tell us a little bit about the first sparks of the idea for this book?
Amy DuBois Barnett (01:45)
Oh sure. So this book has a sort of an interesting origination story, right? I started it in my mid thirties and finished it in my fifties. I started it when I was editor in chief of Teen People. And I was like, like I said, I was in my mid thirties and this was maybe, I don't know, 2006, something like that, four, five, six, something like that.
And I just wanted to write about a woman who wanted to become an editor-in-chief. And when I was first writing the book, I was like just sort of plucky, smart girl, wants to be EIC. And I wrote about 100 pages. And I put it aside for a few different reasons. I mean, there were professional reasons. I wanted to finish a nonfiction advice book for women for which I had been contacted about by a literary agent. I was like, okay, let me do that first. And then I kind of got swept into my career in media and I didn't really have the creative bandwidth to finish the book. But the story never left me. After all those years, I just couldn't sort of put it away permanently and I would every now and then pick it up and look at it and whatever.
And fast forward to 2023 when I was leaving corporate media there was a burning desire in me to finish this book. And I realized that it was because I understood what I was actually writing about. You I wasn't really just writing about a woman who wants to be editor-in-chief. I was writing about finding your voice. I was writing about the cost of ambition. I was writing about the choices that you make as you go for your dreams and who you're willing to become on that path.
And I was also writing about the era in a different way. You know, I had all those years of insight and reflection on the era and I was like, I'm actually really writing about misogyny. You know, I'm writing about sexual violence and sexual harassment, you know, and with a soupçon of racism, but woven into a page turner, you know. So I realized when I got back into the book that it was something that I wanted to layer with so many more themes. And actually, you know, that's when I wrote the prologue, the prologue, you know, with, the main antagonist of the book didn't exist when I first started writing it. So it was just a very different book when I finished it in 2023 than when I started it in 2005.
Amy Clark (04:15)
Yeah, yeah, I talk to a lot of writers where, you know, it's probably wasn't even possible to write it, where you were starting from there and now you have these years of wisdom with your career to really add more nuance and, you know, reflection in this kind of experience for readers. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you crafted the story, you know, are you an outliner? Did you plot it out? How did this look for you? And then what's the process with selling the book as well?
Amy DuBois Barnett (04:48)
Ooh, so I am an outliner. I'm just, you know, it's possibly my training as a journalist and, I am for sure an outliner. and I guess if I think back on it, you know, there are some structural similarities, right, between myself and my protagonist. Although some people are reading this like it's a memoir and I'm like, this is actually, this is very much not my story. And I hesitate to say too much around that because it strays into the thou doth protest too much territory. other than the structural similarities, this really is a full work of fiction with the characters aren't even composites. I mean this is really invented.
And so I think what I started doing when I first began the novel was very kind of plot driven. It was like, OK, what's going to happen? And how is she going to go through this journey? And then when I realized later on what the book was really about, I went back into everything. I went back into my outline. And I reconfigured it to reflect what it was I really want to write about. And I started over. I wrote the prologue. And then I rewrote everything that I started with. And this is when actually some of my training really came into play.
When I was in my mid-20s or mid-late 20s, I actually got an MFA in creative writing. And I thought that this was what I was going to do in my life. I thought I was going to write novels. And I can tell you the story later, but I ended up moving into media. But that training of being disciplined around narrative and story structure and characters really helped me when I was reconfiguring this novel.
And so I got back into it in 2023 and I had those hundred pages that I rewrote, finished the book in 2023. A wonderful woman who I'd met, who was a journalist, who interviewed me early in my career and then an editor at an imprint and now has her own imprint. She was interested in my book and she reached out and helped me find my new literary agent because I wanted somebody different to agent my book than who agented my nonfiction fast forward, my book went to auction. There were six different publishers who were interested in the book, but many others who were not. Just to be clear, this is how the cookie crumbles. I'm so grateful I have thick skin because I was like, she didn't want it either? OK.
But you know six six publishers were interested. I'll never forget that my god, I'll never forget it. I'm on the West Coast. I'm a Los Angeles based Of course most people are in the publishing are on the East Coast and so the auction started at 8 a.m. And it was a two round option, you know and I'll never forget that night. My fiance say still laughs at me because I was like at some point I was like, just, you know, the night before the auction, was like, this, this night must end. I was like, I can't take this anymore. And I literally went to sleep. Like I was in a sarcophagus. I was like, I'm out. And apparently he said, I lay down, crossed my arms and was out. I really, I was like, I can't take it.
And I woke up in the morning, obviously, you know, to, to hear that, you know, my favorite publisher, the one who I was most excited about, you, the one I really wanted to work with, was the one who had bid the highest. And then, you know, we went to a second round. And so that's how my book was acquired by Flatiron in a two book deal, which really changed my life, I must tell you, because one book, you know, is amazing. Don't get me wrong, I would have been thrilled. But two books, you know, I was like, wait, now I'm an author, you know, and it was just, it was a life changing, it was a life changing moment.
Amy Clark (08:46)
Did you do anything special to celebrate?
Amy DuBois Barnett (08:49)
You know, I did. Part of the reason... This is so ridiculous. I'm telling on myself here. But part of the reason why I went to sleep like I was in a sarcophagus was because I had all this eye makeup on. I had some kind of event the previous day. I don't remember what it was, but it was something that were not required, that... For which I got my makeup professionally done. And, you know, I don't normally do this.
But I was like, okay, tomorrow is my auction and maybe we'll go out tomorrow night. So I left on the lashes, which I hate, but I left them on and the eye makeup, not the face makeup, but the eye makeup. And I went to sleep like this. It was so hilarious, actually. And then we went out that night. A friend had a rock and roll live music showcase at a local spot and we went out there and I got my Led Zeppelin on.
Amy Clark (09:42)
Nice, nice. Ohmy gosh. Okay. Do you remember your comps that you put on your book so I can tell readers?
Amy DuBois Barnett (09:49)
Let's see the comps, gosh, where were my comps? And I can tell you what my comps are now, you know, I think my Publishers Weekly comps were something like, The Devil Wears Prada meets Other Black Girl, you know, kind of world, you know, yeah, you know, which,
Amy Clark (09:59)
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Sometimes that gives people ideas of what kind of book they're getting into. So I always like to ask that.
Amy DuBois Barnett (10:10)
Exactly, exactly. But I love to add Daisy Jones and The Six. Yeah, love.
Amy Clark (10:14)
Ooh, because of your music component?
Amy DuBois Barnett (10:37)
Yeah, exactly, because the book is so, I mean, it's about at its core, you know, the magazine industry, but really, it's about the music industry and the way in which my character, my main character, is adjacent to the music industry and has to navigate both. Right. And so I really appreciated the portrayal of the music industry, you know, and also a big writer crush on Taylor Jenkins Reid. So I like to throw that in. But there's so many, yeah, exactly.
Amy Clark (10:45)
Yes, I love this. It's amazing. Well, let's, let's start getting into your story a little bit here. Your book does open with a rather unsettling power dynamic. And I wanted to talk about how intentional you were about placing that right at the forefront. It's got a little spicy setup at the, at the top of the book. It may surprise readers. So I kind of want to set that up for everyone who's listening.
Amy DuBois Barnett (11:12)
Yes, no, it starts off with a bang as it were. I mean, yes, I know I really kind of what, you know, I wish I could remember how that even came to me. I did want to set up this relationship that my protagonist, Nikki Rose has with the primary antagonist who is a man who is her boss, was her boss, is her lover, you know, a man with whom she has an affair. And he also turns out to be a friend of her mother's from high school. So she is, going into some, difficult, dicey territory, you right within the first couple of pages of the prologue, but it also sets up. So we understand who he is in her life and why this relationship is so incredibly forbidden.
But then, as you said, you know, we immediately understand that not only is there an uneven power dynamic between Alonzo, which is that man's name, and Nikki, my protagonist, but also, he is somebody who represents a lot of the misogyny in the music industry. And, you know, he dominates her in a way that titillates her sexually, but is also violent and unhealthy, know, and dysfunctional, guess unhealthy is not quite enough. It's dysfunctional is probably not even enough. So we kind of go into that in the prologue and it ultimately sets up, you know, where we really meet, you know, Nikki as the story begins, you know, because that's when she has to switch out of her job working for this man Alonzo. And she starts working, for a Stylist, which is a very kind of upscale, if you will, you know, high end magazine and that's where we first meet her in chapter one when the story kind of starts to take off.
Amy Clark (12:59)
Yeah, it launches the reader right into the middle of the action, so to speak. I love that. And you know, I will say that sometimes messy characters can be a little polarizing for readers and you have to make certain decisions. I think as an author, when you bring in someone who has a lot of messy backstory, right? We all are messy people, but also like what, what makes a reader fight for and want to follow Nikki throughout this career path that she's going on. And you know, I would say that I know you said what your comps are. This actually reminded me a little bit of Queenie.
I don't know if you've read that book, but it yes, it has beautiful friendship stories. Yeah, but she was, but I was rooting for her. You know, I yeah, and I do think that that takes a skill to write a character that you're like, okay, I hope she gets through all this so that we can get to the other side, which is the experience, the reward for the reader. Can you talk to me about writing this character?
Amy DuBois Barnett (13:36)
I mean, what's so interesting you say that because it turns out that she is, she is polarizing. You know, I have had a lot of people like, oh my God, she's frustrating. I can't take the decision she's making. It's, you know, it's very interesting to hear that because in part, of course it was very intentional, right? You know, we are seeing her at the, sort of crux of her womanhood. You know, she is 29 when the story really takes off, you're heading into her thirties. And that was a time of life I wanted to explore. It's a time when I think a lot of women are figuring out who they want to be as women, right? How they want to walk through the world. They're getting comfortable in their own skin. It's a moment when a lot of women, for myself, it happened a little earlier for me. I'm a very different person than my protagonist is actually, but she's very naive and she's kind of insecure and she's trying to figure out her place in the world.
But for many women, this is sort of a moment, a period of time in which they're figuring, they're also figuring this out for whatever that means for them. So I wanted to explore that and the mistakes that we make along the way because it's difficult to become who we are without these sort of mistakes. You know what I mean? I wanted to show a woman who is, like I said, naive, right? She seduced by Alonzo, you know, the sort of main antagonist and her former boss, in part because she's, he exposes her to a world, you know, sexually and otherwise, you know, that she has not experienced before. And it's, it was sort of an interesting precursor to me for this character as she kind of transitions from the fashion magazine world into being more urban music adjacent and into urban publishing where it's not like she's unfamiliar entirely, but she is a, being a fan of music is very different than walking into a culture and trying to be a boss in that space. And so she's very much kind of rocked by the culture of it all and trying to figure out how is she going to extricate herself from this man, Alonzo, who becomes a dangerous enemy of hers.
How is she going to save this magazine that she's been entrusted with? And how is she going to hold onto her very soul, you know, as she's trying to navigate the music industry and she's making mistakes along the way? You know, she's not clear about everything. But you do root for her because she is mission driven. She cares very much about her community. She cares very much about the readers she's serving. She's excellent at her job. so you kind of, have that in her as well.
And you can see that she's naive and you really want her to succeed. And it is only when she becomes empowered and finds her voice that things fall in place around her professionally and personally.
Amy Clark (16:45)
Yeah, I would agree. I would call this a coming of age story. Would you say so?
Amy DuBois Barnett (16:50)
You know, I've been hesitant to call it a coming of age story because she is an adult. I've been calling it a coming of power story. Because I feel like she's into her own power here.
Amy Clark (16:56)
Ooh, okay, okay. Yeah, I tend to gravitate towards stories like this that remind me, guess, that I can acknowledge. I also have my own coming of age in different life stages of my life and I love stories, especially of women coming into their power, as you say, in their 30s and their 40s and their 50s. That excites me, especially as I'm a midlife reader. So this is probably the youngest of protagonists that I typically gravitate towards other than when I'm like looking at young adult experiences because I think I relate more to women now in their 30s, 40s, and 50s and I definitely felt like she was like having a grown-up coming-of-age moment as she comes to find her voice but I love the idea that this is like all around her finding her voice and power in her role.
Amy DuBois Barnett (17:44)
Thanks. You know, my hope is that this book will resonate with women who are older, who have lived through this particular era, you know, the 90s, the early 2000s, and who have already kind of gone through, like you said, that moment where you're really coming into, yourself as a woman, where you're getting comfortable in your own skin, and you can recognize what that path looks like. And I'm also hoping that it resonates for younger readers who may be going through this moment right now, I mean, who are kind of seeing themselves in the protagonist. Because I would love for them to recognize that it is possible to make a lot of mistakes and come back from them. That was one of the messages I wanted to convey in the book. Your mistakes don't end you. It's just you could allow them to inform who you are, allow them to be part of your process of evolution, and you can come back.
Amy Clark (18:17)
Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. Well, obviously, Nikki is one of the only black women in the room. You did have one little scene that I really appreciated with the HR person also being someone of color and that experience about reporting, you know, this incident. But I want to talk about how you wanted to portray that, especially with your background in media and the experiences that you are giving your character to embody that maybe you have gone through as well.
Amy DuBois Barnett (19:09)
Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, this is, as I mentioned, not my personal story, right? I mean, I have a very different trajectory into being editor in chief and, you know, had a different kind of life at that moment, 29 into 30. But there were about, and I counted them because I've gotten the question so many times, is it you? So I literally counted, I was like, well, how many things? And I realized that there was about five moments from my real life that I appropriated for the book. Five sort of anecdotes or just kind of moments. among them were two of the racially charged moments that were in the book. One of them was from my real life was the moment when, I mean, this happened to me in a different different stage of my professional life with a different type of a boss entirely.
But the moment when Lucinda, who is the editor-in-chief of Stylist, the fashion magazine where Nikki works, when she says, know, when Nikki's trying to pitch a black woman model for the cover and Lucinda goes, know, black girls don't sell magazines. And that was actually a phrase that was said to me and that stuck in my 20s and it stuck with me for many, many, many, many years.
And then there was a second incident you know, when I was a deputy editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar, again, in a very different role than Nikki was at Stylist. I was leading a team meeting and, will not gonna, I'm not gonna say anybody's name, but, we were all pitching sort of stories, you know, for the next issue. And, Alicia Keys, who is now Bobby Washington, the singer in question in my novel, it's not a composite, but in this particular meeting, I knew Alicia was coming out with an album. And I was like, well, we're just pitching. was like, well, Alicia's coming out with an album soon. We could shoot her maybe black and white, smokey jazz bars. This is one of those meetings where you throw out an idea and then people kind of either don't like it, which is fine, or refine it, or whatever it is. And I'm the only black person in the room. I might have been the only brunette in the room. I mean, it was really a very white environment at Harper's Bazaar. And the blonde woman who, you know, in a powerful position, you know, in power. I mean, I was the deputy editor in chief, but she was, you know, head of a department. She looks at me and for context, the editor in chief was a woman named Glenda Bailey, very exacting. She made people cry in her office almost every day. You know, she was our editor in chief, very difficult to please. That's an understatement. Anyways, this woman looks at me and she goes, oh, Alicia Keys is so boring. The only way I could see Glenda green lighting that story is if Alicia agreed to be shot in white face or something. And then she looks at me, she's like, whoops, sorry, Amy.
And so I took that moment as well and put it in the book because it was just so striking. And it was so emblematic of what it feels like to be the only person of color in these spaces. It's not always like overt kind of racism. sometimes it's, I don't know if that's a microaggression or if it strays into macroaggression.
Amy Clark (22:16)
No, that doesn't seem micro.
Amy DuBois Barnett (22:18)
Exactly, these are the kinds of comments that you field and you have to figure out how are going to react? Are you going to react with fury? Are you going to keep the meeting moving? Are you going to speak with the person afterward? What are you going to do try to navigate what it feels like to kind of have to contend with comments like that in these environments where you are working toward a professional goal that's meaningful and not particularly easy to achieve. So that was one of the reasons why I thought it was important to write about, to write those scenes in which Nikki was really the only black person, person of color in a room and the way in which she had to navigate that and the way in which she felt judged and dismissed and displaced.
Amy Clark (23:06)
Yeah. Those were really impactful scenes and I think those scenes are really important for readers. I think it's one of those things that book clubs could discuss about, you know, different scenarios that maybe they've gone through or that they've witnessed or even to acknowledge maybe their own microaggressions that they have, you know, done in the years past and how they look back on their behaviors now. So I think that's a really great thread for people to latch onto. I want to talk a little bit about building a magazine.
Okay, this was so much fun for me as someone who delights in content planning. You know, I love to like drop a season of the show. I love, you know, trying to map out who I think is gonna be like a big book to talk about and this had so many fun little scenes in it. We have real time scrambling. We've got second guessing. We have trying to scout for talent. I would love to hear like is this your experience? I just love learning especially about picking people for covers and how you have to project what you think will be the next thing.
Amy DuBois Barnett (24:14)
Absolutely. I mean, that was very much inspired by my experience as an editor-in-chief. I'm a three-time editor-in-chief of national magazines and I was deputy editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar. So I have a fair amount of experience in that world. And I thought it would be interesting to give people a sort of a BTS perspective on what it is like to put together a magazine in addition to the era itself.
And this book is set, again, late 1990s, early 2000s, in the heyday of magazines. This is a moment when magazines were among, or if not, next to probably, guess, maybe TV, probably the most powerful form of media at the time, and a cover could make or break an artist. It was just that kind of a moment. And so these magazine environments were pressure cookers because there was so much at stake.
And so as you're putting together the issue, you're not just casually like, my god maybe we'll, you know, don't know, do a story on, you know, whatever. Maybe we'll just put like your random person on the cover. Like you are really strategizing, because you have 12 in a year if you're doing a monthly magazine. It's limited real estate. And so you're really strategizing, you know, what is going to both serve the reader and grow your subscriptions, right? Because that's kind of your long-term base of readership. But then also what's going to drive your newsstand sales because that's the money that drops right to the bottom line.
You know, that's, you know, your newsstand figures are really like a, they were, I'm sure they still are in that world, a barometer, you know, of your success. And it's kind of like a monthly report card. And so you're very intentionally picking not just the inside stories, but also what's going, who is going to be compelling on a newsstand because the average person looks at, a cover on a newsstand. I think it was like, I don't know, 0.75 seconds. I mean, it was something insane. So you're really calculating things like what are the cover lines and what are the cover subjects that are going to grab the most attention, and hold it the best.
Amy Clark (26:14)
I was thinking about how, well, I'm still a print media subscriber. Do you still subscribe to print media?
Amy DuBois Barnett (26:20)
I do, get like maybe three magazines, three subscriptions now.
Amy Clark (26:26)
Yeah. Yeah, I love print media. I still want to carry around a magazine and that might be because I'm a Gen X person, but I really do gravitate towards more print media. But it's a new age of that because we have minute by minute news now with social media. I was thinking about how choosing a cover six months from now, my gosh, that could be detrimental. How would you make a decision because someone could be embroiled in a terribly scandalous headline and you have them on the cover the need to pivot even though weekly people it's it's wild to me like you know you have to really really think about like is this person maybe potentially going to be involved in something and you just don't know
Amy DuBois Barnett (27:08)
Oh, it's crazy. Honestly, I mean, yeah, I mean, the picking cover now would be such a different enterprise, because at the time, you know, when I was an editor in chief, you were picking people with, you know, often with projects coming out or with big personal news or, know, who are sort of perennially interesting to your particular target, demographic, that kind of thing,
And it was already tough because you were already trying to figure out whose project was going to do well. were sort of dealing in a world, a competitive world where everybody, other people wanted that person on the cover too. Some people were excited to be on your cover. Other people, you had to pitch and you were vying for some cover subjects and you were getting excited, you sort of incoming requests from other people. And that was already complicated. But now to your point, I mean, you know, could have Timothy, you know, Chalemet on your cover. And then next thing he knows, he's like disrespecting, know, ballet and opera, you're like, my God.
Amy Clark (28:00)
Yeah, it's so seriously, I just can't even imagine projecting six months from now who's going to remain pristine in the headlines for anyone's cover.
Amy DuBois Barnett (28:16)
Right. We did it like, think for monthly we were, well, it depended. I mean, sometimes we were six months out if it was like a really big person, you know, but it was usually like four months out. But still four months, four or three months, four months is like, you know, it was tough. It was very difficult.
Amy Clark (28:23)
Yeah. Well, I mean with Nikki too, I won't spoil anything. I'm not going to say anything specifically, but she does make a bet, let's say, on someone that is supposed to be on the cover. And then, you know, it turns out like the stars do not align for that cover. Did you ever have that experience?
Amy DuBois Barnett (28:48)
Did I ever have that experience? Yes, well, yes I did. Yes I did. I mean, you know, there was, well, of the, I told you there were five sort of incidents that I pulled from my real life and pulled them into, and appropriated them for the book.
One of them, there was a moment in, let's see, I'll just say the real life story. know, and this is just one example. My goodness, there were so many over all those years, but you know, I'll never forget. was a new editor in chief. was at Honey's. That was my first EIC job. And it was one of the earlier issues. So I was still very much of a baby editor. I can say the artist's name now because we're so, it's 25 years hence at this point.
But it was Eve, and it wasn't her fault. But I had her booked for a cover. The shoot was supposed to be in a day or two, literally. And we didn't have a lot of resources. So everything was booked, the glam, the studio, the catering. I mean, you can't get this money. The manager called me. I want to say it was the night before the shoot, actually. I mean, I could be. I don't want to exaggerate. But it was really crazy. And he was like, look, we got an offer from Essence.
You know, which is a much bigger magazine at the time, like Mini X. And he was like, so we got to pull out of your offer. We got to pull out of your cover. I am hysterical because I don't know what to do. I'm, you know, kind of hysterically yelling into the phone weird, which is, you know, not my normal style of communication, but I'm like, hang up. I'll never forget, you know, the chief revenue officer of the company that I was working for, I guess a publisher, I guess of Honey at the time.
He comes up, he's like, what's wrong? Because he, you know, hears me yelling and I was sort of that unhinged. And I told him and he was like, oh, here's what you do. Don't worry about it. You know, and this is, these are folks who are magazine industry or excuse me, music industry adjacent, right? So this is also where I started learning how strategy works in the music industry and what kinds of, you know, how people, you know, get things done.
Right? Like I, cause I'm naive. I'm a little bit like, not naive, like my protagonist, but I don't know how this works. Right? He's like, here's what you do? Call a dude back, and tell him, look, you're going to run the cover anyway, whether you get the shoot or not. And you can't guarantee that the cover picture is going to be attractive now. Right. And tell him you're going to do a cover story, whether you know, you get the interview or not, and it'll be a write around. And you can't guarantee, you know, that that's going to be a flattering cover story. You might have to talk to some of Eve's, you know, enemies. You might have to talk to some folks who don't like her. You know, you don't know. And tell dude that you're gonna put out a press release saying that Eve is on the cover, right? So that Essence will pull out anyway because they don't wanna follow Eve on this competitive magazine's cover, even though it's a smaller magazine. They don't wanna follow, right? Cause that's what you're saying. You're saying they don't wanna follow this cover, right?
So they're gonna follow it, and you're gonna put up a press release saying that, and the cover story won't be flattering, and the cover picture won't be flattering. Go back and do that. And I'm like, meanwhile, I'm like, I'm clenching all sorts of pearls, I'm horrified. like, I know, it really was like, I was like, my gosh, this is crazy.
Amy Clark (31:56)
That takes balls. You're like...
Amy DuBois Barnett (32:11)
So I did it. I did it, but I did it, and it worked. Man, did it work. yes, it worked, it so anyway, so that's just one. A teeny tiny example, and I did take that moment and I put that into the book. There was a scene that's somewhat similar to what happened to me in that particular moment.
Amy Clark (32:15)
Yeah, that was like something. I had never really thought about. What if this person's career doesn't take off the way that we want? I think now it would be embroiled in scandal, but right in this era, we are dealing with more like, you know, you are projecting if someone's going to be a star or not, especially for something that's more indie driven, that's, you know, getting its sea legs in media, which is the, the, what you have offered to readers. So I love this. I mean, I love everything that you created for us to really experience what that world is like both back behind the scenes and also her just trying to find herself. I think this has a lot of glamour in this book too where we get to go to the parties and see how all of that lands. What do you think people might misunderstand about this particular time in media in the 1990s?
Amy DuBois Barnett (33:16)
I think it's just such a different era. You know, it's difficult to convey what it felt like to have that much power in the industry, what it felt like to be able to get into you know, sort of any club or any restaurant, you know, because you have a business card from somewhere or know somebody or you know, what what what that really is like because again, this is magazines in their heyday, because I am writing about a character and a magazine that is music industry adjacent, you also have to remember that this is the heyday of hip hop music. This is when hip hop is at its absolute zenith of power and influence, when it was basically indistinguishable from mainstream culture. And you could feel that power, could feel the cultural influence, you could feel the money in New York City at that time and everybody wanted to go to those parties, those album listening parties, the Puffy parties. Everybody wanted to go, people in finance, people in fashion, people in all manner of industries.
And so we were working in the magazine world and media in a very pressure cooker environment. I was working incredibly hard. But then I would go out on a random Tuesday to a party and party until, you know, four in the morning. You know, God. I mean, I might be able to, you know, in a very rare occurrence. That's certainly not the level of frequency that we were doing at the time at all. But we would go home, brush our teeth, take a cat nap, get up and do it all over again.
You know, so I think that people wouldn't really understand now, just what a highly coveted pressure cooker sort of job that working in a magazine was, but also how incredibly fun it was to be in those positions at that time.
Amy Clark (35:18)
I love this. Well, I want to ask you if you could tell us a little bit about the Hulu adaptation, which I understand is also happening. Are you involved with that? What is happening with that?
Amy DuBois Barnett (35:30)
Oh, I'm so excited. When I was writing this book, I could just see the scenes playing out, you know, kind of in front of my eyes. I mean, you read the book. I mean, it's very textured, very detailed. You mentioned it's very glamorous. It is a sort of peek behind the curtain, at an era that's one of the most important cultural moments of our time, and so you're getting a view into something that's pretty rare because most people don't have exposure to it. I could just, so I wrote a lot of texture into these scenes. I could see them.
And I always knew that I wanted this to be on screen. So after my literary agent and the book sold to my wonderful publisher, Flood Iron, I started to work with my literary agent in finding film and TV representation because they also represent a lot of books and authors who have adaptations. You know, we were kind of strategizing how to take it to market. And then what happened is like before we could really do that, a book scout, you know, which is a position, a human I didn't know existed until very recently. like, a book scout? What is that? A book scout found my book or sourced my book, you know, from the, wherever the book scouts get books, I have no idea if they have ins with the publishers or they go to the book fairs or however it happens.
It was basically in manuscript form. They got an early copy. Not even a copy, they got a manuscript. And the Book Scout gave it to a woman named Emma Watts, who was a very powerful Hollywood executive. She was the vice chair of Fox Pictures. She was president of Paramount Pictures, and now she's producing. She read it, loved it, and then she took it to Lee Daniels, who was the Oscar nominated creator of the series Empire, among many other things. And he read it and loved it.
And then they together approached my film and TV representation. Then we spent, because I wanted to be a part of this. I don't think that I could, this isn't like a, I'm making it up, like a vampire story set in the 1700s. I mean, it's really something for which I was inspired by experiences that I've had and it's set in a world that I understand. And so I really want to be a part of this.
And so I worked with Lee, you know, over the next five, six months to develop a pitch, you know, practice the pitch. And it's a whole process. And we sold it in the room to 20th, which is our studio and then to Hulu. So now what we have is a development deal for the television adaptation. So I'm working with Lee right now. I'm signed on as a writing executive producer. And I'm working with Lee right now to write the pilot for the TV show.
Amy Clark (38:03)
Okay. Does this feel like a whole new game, what you're doing here, or were you familiar with this type of writing before?
Amy DuBois Barnett (38:16)
I mean, no, it's a whole new game, mind you. I am completely on a learning curve here. I know nothing. But I am the type of person that believes in, I see things all the time. I just do. because I knew that I wanted to see this on screen, I knew that I was interested in kind of screenwriting in general, as a medium.
And so I took a bunch of writing classes. I ended up like screenwriting classes and I ended up writing a spec, which is an episode script for the show, The Morning Show. Because I feel like that's like an hour long dramedy, which is what I envisioned this show to be. So I was like, I want the experience of writing an hour long dramedy. So I had taken the screenwriting classes and written the spec script. So at least diving into this wouldn't be the very first time I'd opened up the Final Draft software, which is what one uses to write scripts, you know, but, but still, this is an incredibly new process. And I'm my first go around with everything. So I'm learning so many things.
Amy Clark (39:22)
Okay. I want to latch onto this for just one second. I know that your son is in his twenties. Is that correct? You, you have kids in their twenties and you're in your mid. Okay. Okay. My daughter's 22. So I understand that if my kids are in their twenties and I feel like it is such a transitional season for me at least that it's like what am I interested in? What do I want to do with my life now? Right? I feel like in many ways I have always done creative work alongside my children. It's not that I didn't have that but I do think there is some kind of freedom that opens up when your kids hit their 20s where you are starting to almost find your own. Maybe it is a grown-up coming-of-age story about this new section of your life but I would love to hear how do you get the bravery to start something new in midlife? And what would you encourage listeners who are in this midlife season to be pursuing if they have felt like they have put their life a little bit on hold?
Amy DuBois Barnett (40:23)
Oh man, I hope I have some words of inspiration because I'm 56 years old and I just published my debut novel and I'm working on the adaptation for television. I'm literally in a completely new season. Being a novelist is new for me, screenwriting is new for me, this whole thing is new. And I will say this, over the course of my career, or over the course of my bravery is my favorite characteristic, personal characteristic. It is my favorite one of myself, because I have over again, over all these years, stepped out on many limbs, taken many risks and I've learned from that.
And what I've learned is that fear is growth, you know, and it's really only when you step outside of your comfort zone, when you really push outside of it into the unknown and you make yourself uncomfortable, which you'll likely will make you a little afraid. That's when you start to become who you're meant to be. That's where you start to evolve into the person that you can be. That's where all the growth occurs. That's when your dreams take off, your life takes off. I really believe that the universe likes that kind of energy. The universe likes it when you step out. And that's something that I've really kind of processed over all of these years. I guess the other piece of it is that at least this is held true for me, my entire life.
I also think that, again, back to the universe, the universe doesn't give you opportunities that you don't feel that you deserve. That's in your personal life, in your professional life, you know, if you don't think you deserve to get your book published, to get your screen, play, to get your, to get an adaptation deal, to, talk to that, you know, cute man over there, at the bar, if you don't think you deserve it, right, then it's not a door that's going to open for you. My sort of secret sauce has always been stepping out into the uncomfortable, into the unknown and being afraid, but also knowing that I could do it. Just saying to myself like this, you can handle this, you deserve this, you can do this. And I think that it comes more easily for men. That kind of attitude. I think that for women, we are, unfortunately, you society programs us in a different way and it makes it more complicated for us, but it's possible. They do it. We should do it.
Amy Clark (42:36)
Yeah, I know. So inspiring. Well, I wanted to ask for book clubs, what is one question or maybe some ideas for things you would like to see people talking about from this book?
Amy DuBois Barnett (43:02)
Oh my God, this is such a good book for book clubs. I mean, I've been to so many book club meetings now. So first of all, invite me. I would love to come to the chat. Like I love book clubs so, so much. I will come virtually if it's in, or near Los Angeles, I will, I will come in person. I mean, the conversations have been amazing. You know, we have talked so much about the era, first of all, you know what I mean? And, what that, cause this is, you know, in the news, right? I mean, I had no idea when I was writing my book that the timing would mean that so many of the themes that I'm discussing in my book are in the zeitgeist, right? But they are, and so now we're not only talking about the reckoning that's happening in the music industry, you know, which was, kind of largely began, and was at its peak in the era in which my book was set, but we're also talking so much about misogyny and the way and, you know, our independence as women and our agency as women, you know what I mean?
And the cost of ambition and, what we're willing to, again, become who we're willing to be, you know, as we realize our dreams. And so much of that is in the conversation right now. So a lot of book clubs have been talking about that a lot.
And there's been a lot of conversation about Nikki, you know, and her path and the choices that she's making and why is she making these choices and what is it in her character that drives her to make these particular kinds of choices? We talked a lot about men, because there's so many different types of men in the book. So it's like, well, why didn't she go with this smart, educated, stable man? Why did she get interested in somebody who was clearly emotionally unavailable and unstable? How does she end up where she ends up? What are the themes there?
There's also a lot of kind of conversation around, I want to talk about race, but in a more nuanced way. I don't want to talk about sort of like the basic things that one has heard about. My character, for example, is biracial. And I want to sort of talk about what it feels like to navigate different worlds, not in a like, am I this or that way, but having assumptions being placed on her by different people and in unexpected ways and how she has to kind of deal with that, ways in which hair sort of is thread throughout the book, relating to the race conversation. So yeah, there's so many, I mean, we talked a lot about like the party scene back then and what that was really like and everybody wants to know my personal stories, which I'm happy to share. So yeah, book clubs, It's a very thoughtful conversation, you know, that's both quite serious and also quite fun.
Amy Clark (45:35)
Yeah, no, it's sometimes tricky to get the balance of like fun and also meaty, like enough for a book club. And I agree that this book is perfect for that. Well, Amy, as we're closing out here, and before we do so, I do want to let listeners know that if you're part of our Patreon, we do talk through spoilers. So that will be the gossipy side that I can't really tell you here. It's $5 to join for the month. And that helps keep us independent. So we don't have to have commercials and give space to debut writers like Amy, but we always end our segments with what you're feeling proud of, whether it's with this project or with life in general.
And it also just gives me a chance to say, I'm so proud of you. Like I feel so inspired that my fifties are going to be the best yet. I have, you know, so many things sitting on a Google drive that deserve to be published or worked with. I hear stories like yours and feel so inspired to finally move things off the drive into reality and I'm so grateful that I got to hear your story but I would love to hear what you're feeling proud of right now Amy.
Amy DuBois Barnett (46:42)
I love that for you. Honestly, I am so proud that I have realized this dream of mine from my 20s. This is my original dream from when I got a MFA in creative writing at Columbia University when I was 26, 27, 28 years old. And now at, like I said, 56, I have published, finally published my debut novel and it just feels really incredible to not have let go of that dream, to not have let it just sort of die on the vine but to have circled back to it and it really brought it to fruition. I'm endlessly proud of that, honestly, I really am.
Amy Clark (47:25)
The vision board came to life. We are so lucky. Thank you so much for talking through this book and listeners. I'll meet you on the other side.
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