Corey Ann Haydu reflects on moving from YA to adult fiction and how motherhood shaped her deeply honest debut, Mothers and Other Strangers.
Corey Ann Haydu reflects on moving from YA to adult fiction and how motherhood shaped her deeply honest debut, Mothers and Other Strangers.
Perfectly pitched for fans of Claire Lombardo and J. Courtney Sullivan, debut adult novelist Corey Ann Haydu joins Book Gang to discuss her acclaimed Mothers and Other Strangers. The novel opens with two estranged friends reuniting, both about to become mothers, as they confront a decades-old betrayal that changed their families forever.
Corey shares how new motherhood and her years in children’s and YA writing shaped the emotional honesty of her adult debut—a project she wrote in secret, embracing the bravery it takes to reinvent yourself as a seasoned novelist.
In this week’s fascinating episode, we discuss:
📚Navigating the Publishing “In-Between”: Corey discusses how Mothers and Other Strangers found itself between literary and commercial fiction—a space that can be tricky for editors and publishers. She opens up about the challenges of selling a book that’s hard to categorize and what it means for writers and readers when a novel doesn’t fit neatly on the shelf.
📚 Genre-Shifting and Audience Overlap: Corey reflects on her move from children’s and YA books to adult fiction, and what it’s like to bring longtime readers along for a new kind of story. She shares insights on writing for different age groups, what remains the same, and the unique rewards and surprises of finding new audiences.
📚 The Search for Community and the Allure of MLMs: We explore how Corey’s novel compassionately examines the vulnerability of new motherhood, the hunger for connection, and the ways women are drawn into—and sometimes exploited by—multi-level marketing schemes.
FREE BONUS BOOK LIST: This week’s bonus book list offers readers 14 Books & Films on MLMs, Scams, and the Art of the Con—the perfect companion for anyone fascinated by the world of multi-level marketing and the art of persuasion. Patrons will receive a printable list to take to their local library, plus a spoiler-filled chat with Corey Ann Haydu, where we dive deeper into the back half of Mothers and Other Strangers.
Meet Corey Ann Haydu
Author and educator Corey Ann Haydu has been publishing critically acclaimed books in the young adult and children’s space since 2013, including OCD Love Story, Eventown, Lawless Spaces, The Ordinary and Extraordinary Auden Greene, and more. Currently, she is on faculty at Vermont College of Fine Arts in their Writing for Children and Young Adults MFA program.
Her debut adult novel, Mothers and Other Strangers, came out in March 2026 and was the April 2026 Barnes and Noble Book Club pick, a People Magazine Book of the Week, and a Publisher’s Marketplace BuzzBook.
Corey’s books have been Edgar Award nominees, Amazon Books of the Month, RISE Honorees, Junior Library Guild Selections, Kirkus, PW, and SLJ Best Books of the Year, BCCB Blue Ribbon Honorees, Brooklyn Public Library and Chicago Public Library Books of the Year, and more. A former theatre kid with a BFA in theatre and an MFA in writing, Corey lives in Brooklyn with her husband and daughters.
You can find Corey on her Substack, Books and Bangs, and as cohost of the podcast Still Writing.
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Book Gang Podcast Transcript:
Corey Ann Haydu (00:01)
Hi, I'm Corey Ann Haydu and I'm the author of Mothers and Other Strangers.
Amy’s Warm Introduction:
Hey, Book Gang! Dedicated to "the friends you get to know when you become a parent—and the magnificent few who stick around for the rest of it too," Mothers and Other Strangers opens with the reunion of two estranged best friends whose lives intertwine once again as they prepare to welcome daughters of their own, compelling them to finally confront a decades-old betrayal that forever altered both their families.
Sydney and Mae have always lived under the gravitational pull of their polar-opposite mothers. Beth Ann, Sydney's mother, embodies traditional beauty standards, carefully curated social circles, and holds lofty aspirations for both her home and her family. Mae's mother, Joni, is a gifted artist whose creative spirit and impulsiveness stand in stark contrast to Beth Ann's carefully controlled life. One fateful summer, a daughter witnesses an intimate moment between these two parents that forever complicates not only her friendship with Mae but also her understanding of marriage itself. As the years pass, the girls drift apart, only finding each other again as they stand on the brink of motherhood.
Now an adult, still searching for purpose after a string of unfulfilling career pursuits, Sydney believes she's finally found her true calling through LillyLou, a multi-level marketing company selling pashmina shawls for every occasion. Encouraged by Beth Ann, she's invested her family's finances—and much of her identity—into the business. After all, this is the same mother who chose Sydney's wedding dress, selected her wedding venue, and is even discussing scheduling a C-section for the "sake of her marriage." One could say her viewpoint is inescapable.
Through Sydney’s career, Haydu gently explores the complexities of MLM culture and the quiet isolation that can make it so alluring. As Sydney is drawn into a community promising belonging, financial freedom, and purpose, the author thoughtfully asks: What happens when the very things mothers are searching for (connection, identity, and support) become commodities? Rather than judging the women who join these organizations, she illuminates the emotional vulnerabilities they touch.
Needing to grow her business and longing for connection, Sydney reaches out to Mae and discovers they're both navigating pregnancy. Mae, whose artistic career has paused after early promise and whose mother's absence still echoes in her daily life, tentatively enters Sydney's world and, with it, the circle of LillyLou. What begins as an awkward encounter gradually unwraps long-buried family secrets in a story that winds gently toward revelation.
My highlighter featured on my iPad practically bled dry, marking passages on motherhood. "Weren't each and every one of them just reactions to their own mothers?" Haydu asks. Later comes the startling confession: "Sydney hated how, for a moment, not having a mother sounded like an enormous relief." Then: "Beth Ann was imprinted right inside Sydney, her worst qualities somehow always a bit alive underneath her skin." And finally: "If you have a mom who knows a lot about being a mom, then you become that kind of mom too, surely."
Haydu's storytelling stings like a healing wound when it's touched. Tender, uncomfortable, and achingly familiar. She gives voice to thoughts many daughters have only whispered to therapists or tucked away in locked diaries, capturing the complicated inheritance of motherhood with remarkable honesty.
Rich with emotional insight, the novel explores the blurry lines between mothers and daughters, asking whether it's truly possible to break free from the patterns we inherit. Impeccably pitched for fans of Claire Lombardo and J. Courtney Sullivan, Mothers and Other Strangers is a thoughtful, compassionate, and deeply perceptive novel for anyone who has ever questioned what we owe our parents—and the next generation of women who come after us. Thank you, Jessica Bearak, for this fantastic recommendation!
If you’re new here, I’m Amy Allen Clark, and this is Book Gang—the podcast dedicated to debuts, backlist favorites, and under-the-radar gems.
In today’s episode, we’re joined by Corey Ann Haydu, an author and educator who has been publishing critically acclaimed books in the young adult and children’s space since 2013 and is now debuting an adult fiction novel.
Today, Corey shares how risk, reinvention, and motherhood inspired this remarkable novel about friendship and belonging. We’ll talk about the allure and complexity of MLM culture, the ties that bind mothers and daughters, and the ways we search for connection and meaning in modern life.
As always, you’ll find a free themed bonus book list in the show notes—this week: Deception by Design: 14 Books & Films on MLMs, Scams, and the Art of the Con. Patrons can download a printable version and unlock a spoiler-filled chat with Corey.
And if you love connecting over books, don’t miss participating in this month’s Book Club pick, One Yellow Eye by Leigh Radford, an extraordinary debut that explores horror through the lens of caregiving—and you can listen to my conversation with Leigh, now linked right at the top of our show notes. This is my final reminder that you can join us for that Patreon Book Club chat on October 29th at 8 PM ET for a deep dive into spoilers, themes, and reader reactions. And Classics Club readers, don’t forget: we’re moving into section three of Jane Eyre—chapters 27-38—on December 3rd at 8 PM ET. All the details for both clubs are in the show notes, and you can join anytime for $5 a month, or save 10% if you commit to one year with me!
I’m thrilled to announce that voting is now open for our 2027 Reader’s Choice picks! Each year, our community selects four special reads you’ve always wanted to discuss together—giving them a well-deserved spotlight in our upcoming book club lineup.
I’ve started the list with a few options, but feel free to suggest others in the comments on this post, including submitting your own book if you are an author. Please cast your vote for your top FOUR choices by October 27th, and may the odds ever be in your favor.
Now, let’s meet today’s guest: Author and educator Corey Ann Haydu has been publishing critically acclaimed books in the young adult and children’s space since 2013, including OCD Love Story, Eventown, Lawless Spaces, The Ordinary and Extraordinary Auden Greene, and more. Currently, she is on faculty at Vermont College of Fine Arts in their Writing for Children and Young Adults MFA program.
Her debut adult novel, Mothers and Other Strangers, came out in March 2026 and was the April 2026 Barnes and Noble Book Club pick, a People Magazine Book of the Week and a Publisher’s Marketplace BuzzBook.
Corey’s books have been Edgar Award nominees, Amazon Books of the Month, RISE Honorees, Junior Library Guild Selections, Kirkus, PW, and SLJ Best Books of the Year, BCCB Blue Ribbon Honorees, Brooklyn Public Library and Chicago public Library Books of the Year and more. A former theatre kid with a BFA in theatre and an MFA in writing, Corey lives in Brooklyn with her husband and daughters. You can find Corey on her Substack, Books and Bangs, and as cohost of the podcast Still Writing. Mothers and Other Strangers, today’s featured book, is now available in stores.
If you’re enjoying Book Gang, leaving a quick review on iTunes is one of the best ways to help others discover the show—it’s free and means so much to us! And to our wonderful patrons—you’re the real uplines here, and we promise we’ll never DM you asking if you want to be your own boss babe. Thank you for supporting human creators in a world turned upside down by AI.
Now, let’s get chatting…
(transition music)
Book Gang- Amy (00:06)
Well, I am very excited to have you here, Corey. This was such a wonderful book and my only regret is that I had sent the summer reading guide out before I got to dig into this book or it would have been an addition. So we're gonna do it as kind of a backlist edition for next year's summer reading guide. I'll tell you that now. And I am really excited to introduce people to your work. But before we really dig into the story, I have to ask you if you have any good MLM horror stories that helped inspire the story.
Corey Ann Haydu (00:37)
You know, so many, just even like tiny interactions. I feel like particularly in like right before the pandemic and during the pandemic, when I was still on Facebook, it was just an inundation of conversation about all these products and all these ways I can improve my life. But I also found myself, I'm a a bit of like a, I can be a little gullible. And I'm a very like open and I'm a super like extrovert. And so I'd find myself in conversations that I thought were real conversations where we're trying to be friends. And then I'd realize like, no; this is actually like a pitch.
Like I'm just sort of a person who goes into every interaction. Like, yay, like maybe I'm gonna make a new friend today. And then I just kept finding myself in situations where I'd suddenly be hit by, oh no, you want me to like sell, you know, leggings for you. You don't want to be my friend. and so I'd say that's sort of my overwhelming feeling towards MLMs and also what drew me towards really wanting to understand more about them. Because it isn't the way I operate in the world, but I also am such a believer that like almost I can see myself getting into almost anything, right? Like I'll watch a cult documentary and I'm like, I can see it. I understand how that happens.
And MLMs are sort of the same for me where I'm like, that's not my particular coping mechanism for the world, but I get it. Like, and I wanted to sort of unpack it and try to understand it and have compassion. Like, no, you know, I don't think people involved in MLMs are like malicious people or stupid people. Like I think it's a structure that's inviting you in. And I'm really interested in how you give in to that invitation.
Book Gang- Amy (02:35)
Yeah. I think it's a great exploration. And I think it was just a surprise to me when I opened this book because I'm of course thinking, you know, this is like about mother-daughter relationships. That's the entire scope of the story. And then when I start discovering, you know, I tend to not read book descriptions, but then I start getting into it and realize, this is about that, which, you know, I I feel like, it is so predatory at times. And you do go into those encounters thinking, like this is a beautiful moment. You want to have coffee with me? You wanna go to a class with me? Like go do something fun. And then all of a sudden it's like this hard sell situation.
And yeah, I've definitely been duped a couple of times. I've always been very proud of myself when I don't succumb to the dupe. like what I've like gone into, but I'm always really like a little bit weirded out by the transaction of that. And I loved how this really explored that, but also explores a lot of other aspects of, you know, the reasons why people become attracted to things like that. Like you said, I too watch cult documentaries and go, you know what? I too would like a sisterhood. I would like to share meals. I would like someone to help me cook and clean and take care of the home. But I'm like, not the other stuff. Like I don't want any of that going on in my house.
Corey Ann Haydu (04:00)
Well we're all so desperate for community, and I think particularly around motherhood. Like to me, motherhood and MLMs are such an obvious like marriage because you're so hungry for like interaction and community and togetherness and like shared purpose in that time, or at least I was, and so it's really easy to understand how that could be a solution to the problem of like the loneliness and unanchored feeling of of new motherhood. So to me I was like, these two things pair perfectly together. Like I understand how these things interact against each other, you know, ping pong off each other.
Book Gang- Amy (04:41)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I first want to talk about this writing project. I read that this was your secret project. I've only talked to one other author who had a secret project. It was Allegra Goodman who did Isola without telling anyone. And I thought that was such a boss move. So I want to hear about your boss move about doing your own little secret project that's outside of the scope of the work that you had done before.
Corey Ann Haydu (05:06)
Yeah, you know, as soon as, so I have been writing in children's and young adult literature since I published my first book in 2013. So for a really long time. And that was a really comfortable is a comfortable space for me and a really happy and like fruitful and exciting space. But as soon as I had my first daughter, and really as soon as I was like pregnant, I just started feeling like there's so much more to say. There's so much more I wanna get into about motherhood. Cause I am a person who writes about motherhood a lot, but it's just usually been from the perspective of like a 14-year-old and what she thinks about the mother-daughter relationship.
And I always felt closer to that type of discourse. And you know, when I became a mom, I was like, oh no, I have so much more to explore here. But there's an insecurity, not because I think like adult or children's are harder or easier or more or less, you know, prestigious or literary, but just voice. Like I really felt a worry that can I write in an older voice. Like, do I, can I step into that? Like, I'm so used to occupying a voice where I step back into like a remembered self.
And the idea of trying to write a book in like my current self and like as a grown-up felt really intimidating. So I just didn't, it just but I wanted to play and I had all these ideas and thoughts and things I wanted to get on the page. So I started playing with it, as I said, sort of right after my first daughter was born, and then kind of more heavily, honestly, during like the really hardcore pandemic days. Partly because I think everything was secret then, or like everything was so I you know, I was sort of in my own world, you know, with my with my family, but I was so cut off and I think grappling with motherhood and like new motherhood in that period of time was so disorienting.
It was like a space to unpack and play in that time in particular, as well. So I did a big chunk of the work on it then. but really I was writing it for like seven or eight years. And maybe around four to five years I showed my agent. and she was the force that was like, yeah, this is the book. Like we're doing this. Yeah, but there's a real joy. I mean, I would be so curious to hear what Allegra had to say about it, but there is really something special about a secret project. It's special.
Book Gang- Amy (07:48)
Yes. I mean, it's so memorable to me that special interview because I just love finding out like what women pick up in different life seasons. And one thing about that was that she would go to the museum by herself, right? Because she was researching so just hearing about how she was like trying to tap into all these experiences and she actually didn't tell her agent. So her agent didn't even know. And that was like a whole thing to reveal like when they were like, What are we gonna do next? And she said, I actually have a book that is totally different than my other work. And it ended up being such a breakout hit for her.
And I do think it's so interesting. Like, when did you tell your family? Like, was it weird to like tell your family like you've been working on something secretly like that? Even her husband didn't know. So I just find that all so like, I just love women's work. I love how women work. And you know, not everyone has a secret project, but I do think, I'm working on a little draft of my own, and I think it's like this embarrassing thing.
You know, so it is such vulnerable work and I have a new appreciation for, you know, the storytelling, what it takes out of you, because it is such a vulnerable act to put something that almost feels like your diary, even though it's not, you know what I mean, out into the world. I'm wondering, what did you have to unlearn from, you know, doing children's and YA? What did your process look like differently with this one as far as like drafting and getting it to where you needed to go with the manuscript?
Corey Ann Haydu (09:20)
Yeah, you know, in some ways it was a little like returning to my first book where I had all the time in the world to figure it out. And, you know, over the last whatever it's been 14 years or something, you know, I've learned to be more efficient in my writing process. And I've learned I'm not like a person that outlines, but I've learned to have a little more control over what I think the narrative is going to be going in. Just because, you know, you're under contract and time is of the essence and, you know, it's your full-time job.
But with this, I just went back to that way of writing before I was contracted where I could just explore and just write scenes that I didn't know why I was writing them and wait for the story to present itself to me and wait for me to understand why I was writing these characters and what the plot was. plot is often sort of what I come to last. But again, I've gotten more efficient, so I've sort of found ways to get there quicker.
And with writing Mothers and Under Other Strangers, I went back to like, who knows? And it does never have to have a plot 'cause it never has to actually be a book. So I'm just gonna hang out with these people until something occurs to me and maybe some magical epiphany will happen. And I mean, that's like the joy of writing is that epiphany moment. I'm like, I'm waiting for that always in every book. But the thrill of it with this one was so much bigger because I was so unsure if it would ever present itself. It didn't have to, no one had bought it, no one had signed off on a concept. Like there was no, I could really let it occur to me when it was ready to occur to me, if that makes sense.
Book Gang- Amy (11:12)
Yeah.
Corey Ann Haydu (11:13)
So yeah, it was, it felt a lot like going back to those er early days of learning how to write a novel, as opposed to relying on what I've taught myself over the years and what editors have taught me. I just went back to like exploring and playtime writing and then in some ways it, you know, it was, it's interesting because I think in some ways that is still like the better way to write a book for me, if I'm really honest with myself. Because once you've done that amount of work up front, the revision is easier. And if that epiphany comes, you really know the heart of the book in a really deep and profound way. So I could just write every book that way, I think I would.
Yeah, it's been an interesting reminder. I've been thinking a lot about like what does that mean for my process going forward? And I was so proud of myself for developing a new process as I wrote more books. But to sort of relearn, like, wait, I do maybe some of my most exciting work when I don't know what I'm doing. What does that mean for me going forward? I'm not sure, but it was a real reckoning on like how that dreamy, playful, languid process is really where I find the most joy and I think also maybe create some of the best work.
Book Gang- Amy (12:43)
Yeah, that's really interesting. You know, I feel like lately I've been talking to a lot of storytellers who struggle with the aspect of hook. Right? What hooks a reader? How do I describe it? How do I get someone? And because of the attention economy that we're in right now, where hook is more important sometimes than story. And then people get disappointed once they get into story because they're there for the hook. Right. And so the idea of maybe working a little bit backwards through that process, like you're discovering the hook with us. Is that true?
Corey Ann Haydu (13:19)
Totally. my God. That's so beautifully said. Yeah, that is exactly right.
Book Gang- Amy (13:24)
Okay. Okay.
Corey Ann Haydu (13:25)
I'm the hook is coming years into the process, you know? And I think it's right that like the reader can feel that too, you know. There is a big, there's a big twist or like a moment of change of understanding in the book. And I really discovered that in the writing. And so I think the reader discovery feels a lot, I hope, like the writer discovery felt, like those two things sort of operate in sync.
Book Gang- Amy (13:56)
Yeah. So when you finish the project, tell me about selling this book.
Corey Ann Haydu (14:01)
So it was sort of an interesting process for selling. We went out on an initial round and again my agent was really like just a huge believer in the book; just felt really sure that this was a book that should be like a book club book and should be a big book and she just had a lot of faith in it. So we went out to like a really wonderful list of editors and we got incredible responses and really thoughtful responses and everyone read it. And we kept getting people like not ready to buy it, but not ready to say no.
So we would get like “Let me know.” “I love this. Let me know if anyone wants an offer.” Like, well, you could. And it wasn't like one or two people that said that. It was like eight people said that. But no one, you know, it was like a game of chicken and sort of no one made the move on it. So it was confusing. Like I don't think my agent or I had ever had that particular experience of just like, well, everyone really likes and definitely believes in it enough that they will offer on it if someone else does. But like what's? I don't know. What's that about?
So we took sort of a breather when you know, we were just at like this impasse with everyone and then my agent I think was maybe talking to someone else and brainstorming like, you know, who is the person that's gonna get it enough to. nNot just wait for other people to say yes, but to say yes on their own. And came up with Sally Kim at Little, Brown. Partly because I think Sally is someone who really appreciates one, one of the things we heard sometimes was like it sort of skirts like the literary commercial line in a way that occasionally an editor would say, like, I'm not quite sure what to do about that. Like is it a little too commercial? Is it too literary? Like it feels maybe like it operates right in between.
And I think Sally is someone that really understands and appreciates that space. And basically, as soon as we sent it to Sally, it was like an immediate enthusiastic response and excitement. And Sally understood it the way Victoria, my agent, had understood it. It's like they both read it the same way and with the same clarity and sureness. And so very quickly Sally offered on it. And you know, Sally is an incredible editor, like really at the top of the field. You really can't do better. So that was a very, from that point on, it was like a very easy, like, well, that's obviously the exact path and exactly where I would want to be and sort of a dream scenario. But it did take that sort of awkward time to get there.
Book Gang- Amy (16:57)
Yeah.
Corey Ann Haydu (16:58)
We had to sort of put aside this like awkward, sort of I don't know, maybe six month, year long period of so everyone likes it but no one's gonna buy it? Like that's a weird, weird thing. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (17:10)
Yeah, I find this really interesting. So towing the line between commercial and literary fiction makes it hard to decide what to do with it. Is that where to shelve it, what we're doing with it? What do you think that is about, these two genres I mean, do you see it as lit fic? 'Cause I see it as lit fic. Do you see it as that?
Corey Ann Haydu (17:32)
Do. I mean, I can, yeah, I think it's in the literary space, but with a strong, accessible and like it certainly has a beachy cover and it has a, you know, it's like a relationship focused. I could see where you would put it in more of like a women's fiction commercial space.
I always think, not that I, I'm always hesitant to compare myself to someone who I like think is the greatest writer ever, but someone like I think it operates in a similar space as like a Meg Wolitzer, right? Where like those are books that are very propulsive and readable. But very lit I consider Meg Wolitzer like an incredible literary novelist.
Book Gang- Amy (18:13)
Yeah.
Corey Ann Haydu (18:14)
But also like someone that great swaths of people read, ex really accessible and f firm familiar in a certain way. So I always hope to write in that type of space. Yeah, I don't know why that felt like challenging for editors or just.
I do think obviously publishing is in a tricky moment. and there's probably a nervousness and I think maybe in some ways the industry fifteen years ago you're looking for a reason to say yes and maybe there's a little more looking for a reason to say no right now. I'm not sure if that's true. I try to tune out like some of the publishing vibes just because it, you know, it doesn't help me. But I wonder if some of that is true. That like, okay, why would this, why would this fail? Why could I? Why would I say no to this? And once you think of the reason to say no, it stays in your brain a little bit.
Book Gang- Amy (19:12)
Yeah, I think what you're offering for comp is great. And also I this very much felt like a Claire Lombardo book, to me. with the relationships in it being quite insular in exploring what those relationships mean and I don't know, it was a wonderful experience and it's just interesting to me about, you know, where do we, where do we place this is always an interesting prospect. And I've had, you know, other authors who get misshelved or they don't or they'd start something different and now we're like, okay, so where do I put this other book that's never been like their other work, right?
Corey Ann Haydu (19:53)
Totally.
Book Gang- Amy (19:54)
We just met with Ellery Adams who did a bit of a cozy horror, but she's known for mystery. And so they're like, Well, we don't know what to do with this book. And she's like, it's having a hard time finding its people. Do you know if there's like overlapping readers from your children's work up to this book. Have you heard anything from people who knew you from that life?
Corey Ann Haydu (20:12)
For sure, you know, and I don't know sort of in like a wide swath of readership, but I can say in like the people in the children's lit world that I've heard respond to it are very much like this feels still like a Corey book, but like very much an adult novel. but like I'm interested in the same things ultimately. I think one thing that really is exciting to me about adult literature is I feel like I have a little more time to hang out in a moment and that's I love to like hang out in a moment and really try to experience every awkward and uncomfortable bit of it.
And I felt a little more emboldened to do that in the writing of this book. So that was like one I one space that it was really fun to play in and expand with. But I do think it asks a lot of the same questions. And occasionally I'll get feedback that's similar when I am unwise enough to engage with reviews of any kind. Sometimes I'll see them be that's so funny. That there's something about the way I write certain women and girls that when I find the reader, when I find my readers, it's really resonant and connective. And when it finds the people that maybe aren't quite its reader, there can be a real anger about my characters that has been there since my very first novel.
And it's always really funny because I write from a place of like real compassion. So when there's people that don't like my characters, I'm like, wait, that's so funny. I'm not trying to write unlikable characters. Like I really like them and understand them. They're flawed, they make
bad decisions. Of course, it's a book. I don't think you want to read about just people like making great decisions. But it's always like this interesting thing for me because I am not setting out to write unlikable characters, but the readers that don't connect, it's often like these people are so unlikable. And I'm like, no, no, you're, no, they're totally understandable.
And like I said, that was a problem with my very first book. I wrote a novel. My debut young adult novel was called OCD Love Story, and very similarly, the people who got it loved it. And there was a swath of readers who were like, Ugh, this girl does all these things. I they're so uncomfortable and I'm so upset and it's so weird. And I like, I don't find her that weird. It's very it's been an interesting to see that play out. And I don't, you know, no judgment. Like I, the reader should feel whatever they want to feel. I'm really comfortable with that. But I think people could misunderstand.
Like I'm a huge Pollyanna. I'm a huge like person filled with hope and compassion. And it's funny when that, when my books are read as unlikable and like something yeah, it's a very funny experience.
Book Gang- Amy (23:24)
I think that's very interesting. You know, I have the benefit. I mean, a lot of listeners don't, but I have the benefit of seeing the reaction from the author and sometimes I have to gauge myself, right? This person's a little bit prickly, you know, and then if you see their face and like the author's reacting and they're like, you think bad and it's like, well I'm not saying she's bad, but I am saying she had to grow on me, you know.
But I do think it is one of those things where I love like when we do these kinds of interviews, sometimes I will pick a comment from someone where they are saying, you know, I hated this or the author didn't do this right or whatever. And I use that as a launch pad for when we do the interviews, right? And say, okay, can you tell me about this specific interaction? Because I think sometimes people don't always understand the intent behind the work. And it's so wonderful to get to say like this might be one of the most critical aspects, but you know why you did what you did. You know what you were building. Those people grew on you. You learned to love them and most people will follow along as long as there's someone to root for in the story, which there definitely is in this book.
I do want to ask, like, did you do anything special to celebrate once you got this book sold?
Corey Ann Haydu (24:39)
Yeah, for sure. It actually it sold around a similar time period as my birthday. So it was very, very well timed. So I went out with you know my husband and I celebrated, but I also really specifically remember my group of friends. I dedicated the book to two different groups of like my early mom friends. And one of those groups and I went out to like a really lovely dinner and got to take the time to like celebrate. And at that time they didn't know that it would be dedicated to them but I knew because that had always been in my head. So that was really special.
And in general, I would say those groups of friends, I mean, all all my friends have been really supportive, but those I I dedicated it to this these two different mom groups and it's been a really special type of support from those two two groups of friends who were such big cheerleaders for me during early motherhood and then have been such big cheerleaders professionally too. which is a really cool I think sort of unique thing.
Book Gang- Amy (25:47)
Yeah. I am still friends with my friends from my mom's group that I was in when my kids were little. Now they're in their twenties. Those are still like my people. And yeah, I don't think we would have all been brought together had we not had these children and we were all like navigating the same stages in life. And, you know, now as we've gotten older, you know, it's just amazing to have people that are still, you know, now we're talking about menopause and colleges and all of those kinds of things and it's a really big gift to be able to have those kinds of people in your life that love you through all those different kinds of stages of motherhood for sure.
Corey Ann Haydu (26:27)
Yeah, absolutely. And in some ways, like I really wanted the book to be about that too. The vulnerability of friendship at a lot of different life stages and how like deeply meaningful that is. Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (26:42)
Yes, absolutely. Well, I want to get into your story a bit. I'm gonna pull up my questions here. I have so many questions about this book. One line I highlighted was "Weren't each and every one of them just reactions to their own mothers?" I have to tell you that my highlighter nearly dried up if that exists on the iPad. I felt like there were so many lines like this where we're thinking about how our mothers kind of inform our lives and then we're trying to resist and then we're doing kind of the same behaviors. And I loved this little cycle that you put us in. So did that thematic thread kind of emerge to you naturally or did you just, obviously you are kind of building with us. So what was the intent with all the threads that you were pulling together around these mothers and daughters?
Corey Ann Haydu (27:33)
Yeah, I mean I definitely was specifically interested in the way you both the way you were mothered as a kid and the way you are mothered as a mother informs your own mothering. So I really wanted to play with, you know, in the book, the the two mothers and sort of the first generation of mothers, Beth Ann and Joni, have sort of opposing ways of mothering, like a more rigid and expectation-based style and a more like freewheeling, I'm your friend sort of style. And I really wanted to play with how that engages with particular types of kids.
And then who they become as adults and the way you both mirror and reject, because I do think it's like this balancing process, right? When you are becoming a mother yourself of like what you are accepting of what you recall of your childhood and what you're rejecting and how able are you to reject.
I think before I became a mom, I really thought I could reject quite easily the things I didn't like. But I think it turns out like it can be really hard to push against the things that you grew up with. so I was really interested in exploring that. and I think particularly with Sydney, I think there Sydney is Beth Ann's daughter, and think she really wants to reject. And she has some amount of clarity of vision about who her mom is and was, but keeps finding herself on the path that like is not leading her that far away from it.
And I think I find that to be like one of the big truths of motherhood, that the work of rebelling against or rejecting parts of your own childhood can be very much more difficult than you anticipated. And it shows up, you're like, wait, no, I'm doing it, or wait, no, like here I am, sort of in this responsive state. So I wanted to play a lot with that, with those two with different archetypes of motherhood and the sort of unexpected ways they do and don't serve kids, serve the adults, and act as things you can reject or not, if that makes sense.
Book Gang- Amy (30:02)
Yeah. Well, Beth Ann, honestly did you grow to love her? Let's talk about her. Because she, of all the characters, I felt like there were moments with her and her daughter that were quite infuriating, you know, that I think that, you know, as far as book clubs go, I would love for book clubs to talk about some of the scenes between this dynamic specifically. And, you know, when I talk to authors, the ones that I like, the books that I love following along with those writers have fallen in love with those characters, even if they make decisions that are sometimes polarizing, right? For book clubs to talk about. If everyone's all one note, we're never gonna really have very much it'd be like, yeah, we like that book. But you really threw a lot in there in that dynamic. Can you talk to me a little bit about crafting that character?
Corey Ann Haydu (30:54)
Yeah, she is actually a character that when I first, you know, those four or five years in, showed my agent, my agent at first was like, ugh, hate her. And then she like sat with it or maybe read a little further in and she was like, oh wait, no. Like, Beth Ann is a character who is, and I she needed to say this to me for me to explore it more, I think is what I'm getting at is Beth Ann is a character who is sort of trapped in a circumstance and a way of being. And she's bought so deeply into like this is the way to be a mom, and way to be a wife, and way to be a person.
And that that's sad, that that's not like a knock on her as a person, that's like a structural situation that she's fighting with throughout the book and maybe not fighting the way we would love to see that, right? Like I'm a, you know, 43-year-old, like millennial woman. Like I would fight against structure, you know, in like a really bold way, hopefully, or in a way that feels more satisfying.
But I do think Beth Ann wants to fight against the structure, but is limited in her understanding of how to do that. And so she does give Sydney advice on like how to not become sort of trapped in a marriage that you're really dependent financially. She doesn't want her daughter trapped in a marriage that you're dependent financially. That's we all like, you know, I think most readers are like, yes, we all want that. Except the ways she goes about that are so flawed, but it's all she has available to her. Like that is what she has to draw on. She does not have you know, some like college class on sex and gender to that she really unpacked all these dynamics. She doesn't have that. She doesn't have like close girlfriends that she can expose her vulnerabilities to and unpack all this really tough stuff. That's not available. So she wants a thing that we all again, like most of us want for our kids, for our daughters specifically.
But she doesn't have a great tool set for what to tell Sydney to do. So she offers her what she has, which is like an MLM, which is keeping your husband at a real arm's length when it comes to seeing your like vulnerable, messy, ugly side. Making sure you're quite put together and attractive and available to your husband in the ways that feels safe. She wants her daughter to be safe. And when my agent and I sort of started unpacking her more, I think then we both, she, Victoria and I sort of in unison like started feeling so bad for Beth Ann Like, so hard.
Book Gang- Amy (33:47)
Yeah, no. I do, I like, I bring that up because, you know, at the start of the story I like, I don't know about this lady. Like, I really am concerned and I don't like that power dynamic where someone is micromanaging an adult and deciding what is best for them, especially there's like some scenes later in the story, which I won't get into, but just she micromanages aspects that really are alter like things that will be memorable motherhood moments for her will now be forever altered because it's like teaching her self-sufficiency it basically like that is above everything, right?
Corey Ann Haydu (34:29)
Yeah. Totally.
Book Gang- Amy (34:30)
But as I got along on the story, I started to make sense of her and the ways that you're explaining. And I think these kinds of podcasts are great for people because when they listen, then they understand, okay, like we're gonna go on a journey with her, this character. We're going to uncover why, we're gonna unpack a little bit and also come to understand who she is. And I can tell that you care about this character and of course she wouldn't have the tools, right? And that's all the tools she has. So she's giving her daughter exactly what she has to offer her.
And I think that kind of goes back to when it comes to mother-daughter relationships, often complex, sometimes wounded relationships are because that's all our mothers had tools for, you know, and I often think about, okay, in contrast, sometimes I'm pushing against what my mother has established for me to show like I will be accessible to you in all these ways that were not accessible to me. And now I just wonder like, did I upswing too hard in another direction? What will my daughter do with this? What will she be unpacking?
Corey Ann Haydu (35:40)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (35:41)
What will she feel wounded by that I didn't do right? You know, or I look back on things that I didn't do right.
And I think we only know what we have. And you know, that plays out so beautifully. The MLM aspect, of course, her being in this upline of all uplines. First of all, pashminas have a moment. Also, they branch out into lingerie, which was hilarious because there's always like some weird thing. Like, I'm selling protein powder, and then all of a sudden they're like, no, now we're like selling like activeware. And you're like, okay, like I guess that kind of goes with your protein powder. So yeah I love how you built this out and it really ended up being part of the best part for me.
And I think like I'm not going to like perfectly quote you but the ways that you laid out the levels of the MLM like you're growing into a vase you know like the most absurdest levels. How much fun did you have crafting that?
Corey Ann Haydu (36:38)
I had such a good time. The best time. I had such a good time. And like really sitting and thinking, okay, if it's gonna it's like a garden motif, like a bouquet motif. And like I had the best time of my life. Like not just craft crafting what it would be, like, you know, the vase holds the flowers and the water pours into the flowers and helps them grow, you know, all of that.
And you know, what who's what role. But then like the seriousness with which the characters talk about this ridiculous structure, like that's what's really fun for me. And I like to, you know, it's not a funny book, like overall, but I like to like take delight in real specificity as a way to like, yeah, have some funny moments. And to me, I mean, I like crack up at those.
There's two things in the book that really crack me up, and it's the seriousness with which they take their like flower and vase positionings and titles and like the, you know, desperation to like move up to vase level. And then also there's a theater boyfriend who is putting on a Shakespeare production that like absolutely like I think it was hilarious. So sometimes you're just writing like what's gonna amuse you for your particular brand of interest. But I yeah, I really loved conceptualizing it and then I loved even more making these characters take it really seriously.
Book Gang- Amy (38:06)
Yeah. Were you inspired by any real MLMs to like craft this like upline? How did you like formulate all of this? I mean, did you have to build your own fake MLM business then for
Corey Ann Haydu (38:17)
I actually started selling pashminas. So if anyone's interested. Okay, great. We'll talk.
Book Gang- Amy (38:36)
Okay, cool. Okay. As long as I'm not on the hook for the lingerie, I think I can handle a pashmina.
Corey Ann Haydu (38:47)
No, you know, I did a lot of research through, you know, channels that I think a lot of people are reading and interested in. There's the podcast The Dream that I was really interested in. There's a Lularoe documentary. The name is gonna escape me right this moment. And there was also a book called like Hey Girl or something like that that was like the unpacking of an MLM experience. And I would say those three things were like a part of my research. And then I just let it go from there.
I, to be honest, in some ways for me, a way to have the research be supportive rather than generative is I sort of came up with it first and then went to the research to make sure it logistically made sense and defined like little ways in which I really needed to understand the money pressure, like the, I think like that the Lularoe documentary, like seeing these rooms of leggings and the like financial pressure of trying to sell this product that like you may or may not even believe in at this point. I wanted to capture some of that.
But the basic structure, I think a lot of it I honestly got from just spending time on social media. And you get a sense of how it operates just from that.
Book Gang- Amy (39:53)
Mm. Yeah. I've seen a lot of clothing that got taken over to the thrift store, right? Where you see like 50 navy shirts or whatever that was. The LulaRoe definitely was like a huge hit here in the Midwest. Like it was like selling like gangbusters for a while. And I mean I couldn't go anywhere. I mean my, you know, there were people like a physical therapist that was selling it and like it's like out in the hallway, you know what I mean? And it's just kind of like, Well, I don't I don't want that. And it started to interfere even with like my health life where they're like, Well, you know, you need this supplement. Well, we happen to also sell it, you know. And you know, those kinds of things happen.
I think all women kind of navigate that perilous terrain at different points in their life, especially when your kids are little and you're seeking community, which I think what you did so well as like there is a compassionate lens through which we're exploring this like we're not talking about you know making fun of people I think the vase was just a hilarious aspect of like how uplines work and how the organizations are set up. But I think you were not asking why would you fall for this, you were asking what need was not being met for these people.
Corey Ann Haydu (41:06)
A hundred percent. Thank you, yes.
Book Gang- Amy (41:09)
Okay, so was that always the approach with what you wanted to do with the story?
Corey Ann Haydu (41:14)
For sure. Yeah. I mean I think what's interested me about MLMs the whole time is like no one's doing this, not no one. I don't think most people are setting out to like even do it from a super like capitalist way or a super, I think it is, it's a need that's not being met. It's a way that the system doesn't support moms properly.
So much changes in your identity when you become a mom. And I think for me, I felt this real gratitude for writing because it was quite centering for me. And playing with the idea of like, what if you don't have that like clarity of vision about who you are outside of being a mom. Like I was very lucky. I started that career, you know, before becoming a mom and was still doing it. And it's a really important part of me. So when I felt that lost feeling, I had something really specific to rely on. And I found myself going to it. Like people, used to be like, How are you getting books written in these first couple of years of motherhood? And I'm like, I have to. Like I when I'm getting that lost feeling and if it's nap time, I'm like, okay, let's get back to myself for an hour. And that is helpful for me. That's not a burden. That's like a joy. What if I didn't have that? Like, what would I be doing with that time with the space in my head that's asking who am I and what's my purpose? Where would my brain go when I've had a horrible day with a kid screaming at me for hours and I've done a bad job handling it? Like, what do you do if you don't have like a really clear space to travel to. Because I felt very aware that I could always go to the writing and be like, okay, I failed at that today. But I wrote a paragraph. So, you know, at least, at least there was that.
But that's unusual. I think it's unusual to have that. I think I'm really lucky to have that. And I think a lot of people don't. And so I, it's like with most books, it's taking something I understand and like turning the volume on it in a particular way. And so it's just what happens if I have all these same feelings, but I take away this one massive support, this like identity support I have for myself. What do you do with that vacuum? And I think like MLM is one of the most obvious things to do, especially outside of the city. You know, I live in Brooklyn and another thing that was really available was like, I'll just go to the playground and then like someone will be there and hopefully I can talk to them. But, you know, in other parts of the country, like you have your backyard, like people aren't necessarily going to the playground. You know, our playground is 40 moms are there anytime you go. So you can try to get what you need in this more immediate way.
And there's so many different circumstances that that make that not an option. And it felt really easy to explore that and to see how easy it would be for something bad to slip in there. A bad friend, a bad MLM, a bad romantic interest, a bad I'm sure other professional choices, you know, it just is easy. It's a time you're looking for something and so you choose the wrong thing to be the support. Like you're in trouble.
Book Gang- Amy (44:40)
Yeah. I feel like a lot of the books about motherhood lately, especially from millennial parents, are reckoning with the fact that they don't have a village, right? And I feel like it's almost impossible. Like social media has made it easy for people to disengage with your life, right? We can just see what you're doing. Like you can show us a picture. I don't ever have to go to anything, right? And it's that feeling. And we've become so not committed to anything because we don't have to. We've it's almost like a complacency with our relationships, unable to put forth because we're all under some kind of strain right now, whether that's the world itself, with parenting, with all of these things. But in the absence of village, what happens, right? And I think that's where this is the meat of the story is like I'm seeking friendship, but I'm seeking it in the wrong places. I'm putting my time and effort into communities that are bankrupting my family. Like those are real scenarios that happen to many women simply because they're not really looking for a makeover or a pashmina shawl. They're not looking for that. They're also looking for validation.
And I think one other aspect in this is that everyone in this story, whether they, you know, you see them as, you know, at times maybe making really tough things for the characters, like in Beth Ann's case, but they're all seeking perfection, right?
Corey Ann Haydu (46:09)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (46:09)
They're all seeking it. Even the lackadaisical artists who can't put out the work because it's not to par, up to par, you know what I mean?
Corey Ann Haydu (46:18)
Yeah.
Book Gang- Amy (46:18)
I think perfection seems to be something that you also are exploring in this story.
Corey Ann Haydu (46:23)
I'm laughing so much because whenever I get asked like what I'll be writing a book and I'll be like, I'm writing something really new. And then I'll realize like, nope, I'm writing about that thing again. And the thing it is is perfection. So it's really funny that you pinpointed that because I am pretty sure every book I've ever written is about trying to understand perfection and probably like me trying to accept it's not possible, but I like can't seem to accept it. So I just keep writing books about characters trying to navigate it. So it's very funny you pinpointed that because I, as much as this book is about that, I have been, you know, Mothers and Other Strangers is my 20th book. And so I have written 20 books with very different genres and age categories and like types of stories, all trying to like navigate and grapple with perfection. Which is like obviously plays like a huge role in my own life. So I'm I love that you saw that because it's so I think it's like the biggest thing I care about is both how alluring it is and how impossible it is. And how do you find the way to accept that it's impossible?
Book Gang- Amy (47:51)
Hm. Yeah, I loved that aspect of it. And I was also thinking, you know, I will of course ask you if if book clubs pick this, what you would like to see them talking about. But do you think this character's life would be different if she wasn't in LilyLou and instead she was in a book club? Like how do you think her life would work out?
Corey Ann Haydu (48:13)
Oh my god, what a lovely alternate reality for these characters. I love that for them. That would be so much nicer. I actually think that's like exactly what both Sydney and Beth Ann probably need is a really lovely book club. And honestly, any kind of book club, like I don't think it needs to be the most like, you know, highbrow book club ever. I think like literally any kind of book club would have been a great solution. Thank you
Book Gang- Amy (48:44)
Yeah, I know. Is there an alternate world in which we make a chapter where they all join a book club instead of LilyLou and we're like, Wow, look how different it is when we think about other people and like consider the world at large and like we like become passionate about something together. I just think that in the way of villages, I do think, you know, it's not just because I run an incredible book club with multi-generational women. So we have women in their twenties all the way up to their seventies, and getting to be in that and witness the interactions and how maybe someone in their 20s perceives something in historical fiction compared to someone who's lived that experience, or even a story about motherhood. Maybe you see your mom differently, you never even had kids. You know, there's just so many experiences I think that we seek that we aren't getting elsewhere in the world. And I do feel like books are like the answer to everything, but you know, I am a little bit biased. I am running a book podcast.
Corey Ann Haydu (49:42)
One of my favorite tour stops was I, so it was chosen as a Barnes and Noble book club pick.
Book Gang- Amy (49:48)
Yeah, I saw that.
Corey Ann Haydu (49:50)
Which was awesome. And it, you know, made it so I visited some Barnes and Nobles and at one of them, you know, not every Barnes and Noble has like an in-house book club that's super active, but this one particular one in Rhode Island had a very active book club that meets every month and reads the book, the Barnes and Noble Book Club pick. And so I visited them and it was such an eclectic book club, both particularly around gender and age. And that was fascinating.
Book Gang- Amy (50:38)
That's amazing.
Corey Ann Haydu (50:40)
There were I was particularly struck by there being two like younger ish men, with like, you know, women anywhere from sort of 30 to I don't know, 65 or 70. Like there it I was just fascinated and I was like, I wish I could come hang out with this book club every month. Like this is so interesting. And they all seem to know each other's book tastes incredibly well. Which I was just so moved by and they'd be like, you'll like this one and you won't like this one and this one sounds like you know you might like it and it was lovely. Like I just felt like when else would these particular people ever be like in a room talking? And here they are in a room talking about like deep interpersonal things that come up in books. So yeah, if only Sydney and Beth Ann could have moved to Rhode Island, I have the perfect place for them.
Book Gang- Amy (51:17)
I do think it's funny. I can't remember like an appointment on my calendar, but I can remember that my friend Sasha from Book Club recommended in 2010 that I read this one book and then when I get around in 2026 and I tell her that she's like, I can't believe that you remembered that I was the one that told you.
Corey Ann Haydu (51:33)
I love that.
Book Gang- Amy (51:35)
But it's funny, like you do get to know each other's personal taste, and I think that so much could be remedied by just spending time together around books. It definitely has opened my eyes to a lot of scenarios and situations that I thought I had a very strong stance and opinion on and then discover that the world is so much bigger than the way that I perceive it. But if someone gets this for book clubs, or maybe this magical book club will have an answer, but what would you like to see us talking about for this book?
Corey Ann Haydu (52:05)
What a good question. I would really love like a challenging conversation where everyone has to like try to defend all the characters. Like who's the character you relate to the least? And like how can you get there with like trying to understand them? I think that would be a very cool conversation.
And I also think, you know, we're talking a lot about motherhood and it's definitely about that, but I also think of it so much as a friendship novel. So I would just love conversation around what is it to be in a long term friendship, a friendship since childhood, and like what are the ways that can like really deeply impact your life and for these characters, like where is friendship in the balance of the pieces of their world? You know, they have like their husband or their kids or their work. Where does friendship live and how big of a piece of the pie is it? And why? And you know, what happens in the periods of time when friendship is really huge for you, and what happens in the periods of time where friendship is taking a smaller role?
I just am really, I would love to see people talk about just the long term friendships and the paths they take. And I it's so friendship is so interesting because it can break up and get back together without really clear defined conversations the way romantic relationships have. And so I think it can be a really interesting thing to talk about.
Book Gang- Amy (53:45)
Yeah, friendships breaking up can be as hard, I think, as divorces, you know, especially when
your worlds are intertwined. And yeah, those are such great things to think about and to talk about with a book club.
I have one final question, which we always end our show this way, all shows this way. But Corey Ann's gonna be following me over on the other side to talk through the spoilers as well. If you are part of the Patreon community, it's five dollars a month. It keeps us commercial free, independent and gives space to writers to tell their stories. And I'm really, really grateful to our patrons. But we always ask our writers what they're feeling proud of, whether it's with this project or life in general. And I just get to tell you, thanks for indulging in a secret project that I got to enjoy. I loved this book. I just loved how it lit up my, you know, brain receptors. I was reading passages out loud. I was highlighting things. I think you spoke to the complexities of mothers and daughters, female friendship, and just delighted in your MLM scheme you had going in this one. It was a delight. Chef's kiss, really good job. So, but I'd love to hear what you're feeling proud of right now.
Corey Ann Haydu (55:00)
What a great question. I'm really proud of continuing to push myself. I have, you know, my career has taken me to a lot of different spaces and I am really proud that I am continuing to try to center like my own interests and not letting myself be limited what success or not success has come before. And yeah, trying to be open to just always doing something new. For me, like that it's obviously it's for readers, but in some ways like the writing is for me and I wanna be challenged and interested and curious. And so I'm proud that I'm finding ways to continue to do that.
Book Gang- Amy (55:49)
It's so good to be a beginner at things sometimes.
Corey Ann Haydu (55:52)
Yes, it really is. It's so good for you.
Book Gang- Amy (55:55)
Well, listeners, this book, Mothers and Other Strangers, is on store shelves now, and I will meet you guys on the other side.