Author Hafeez Lakhani joins Book Gang to discuss Abundance, a moving novel about an Indian-American Muslim family chasing the complexities of the American dream.
Author Hafeez Lakhani joins Book Gang to discuss Abundance, a moving novel about an Indian-American Muslim family chasing the complexities of the American dream.
I’m delighted to welcome Hafeez Lakhani to Book Gang for a heartfelt conversation about his debut novel, Abundance. Hafeez brings generosity and deep personal insight as he shares the family stories, cultural touchstones, and creative leaps behind this moving portrait of an Indian-American Muslim family. Together, we explore how the concept of naseeb—destiny—shapes both his own life and the emotional heart of the novel.
Abundance follows Sakeena, a Miami Dunkin’ owner facing a life-or-death decision, and her family as they navigate her agency and the messy realities of chasing the American dream. Through richly drawn characters and intimate moments, Hafeez invites us to consider what we control, what we inherit, and how generations care for one another.
In this week’s warm episode, we discuss:
📚 Breaking the Rules on the Page: Hafeez reflects on the twelve-year journey of writing Abundance, and how his decision to forgo quotation marks and italics was both a deeply considered artistic risk and a way to honor the story’s voice. He shares why he wanted readers to feel swept up in the flow of family conversation and culture, and how this choice invites us into the heart of his characters’ lives.
📚 A Mother’s Illness, a Family’s Story: Hafeez Lakhani opens up about how his own mother’s health crisis—and her powerful belief in naseeb (destiny)—became the spark for Abundance. He shares the emotional journey of witnessing his family’s spectrum of reactions, the year spent caring for his mother, and how those experiences shaped the novel’s heart.
📚 Caregiving’s Tender Full Circle: The conversation turns deeply personal as Hafeez discusses the bittersweet privilege of caring for aging parents. We discuss the novel’s more intimate scenes of bathing, feeding, and comforting mothers, the vulnerability and privilege of these moments, and what it means to return the love that once shaped you.
BONUS BOOK LIST: We are celebrating diverse voices this week with my new FREE 2026 Fall Reading Guide. Dig into this book list with 32 Brilliant Books by Diverse Voices: Your Fall 2026 Reading Guide.Patrons can download a printable checklist for their library and access a bonus episode with Hafeez Lakhani.
Meet Hafeez Lakhani
Hafeez Lakhani was born in Hyderabad, India and raised in suburban South Florida. His fiction and essays have appeared in Crazyhorse, Exposition Review, Salt Hill, Tikkun, The Cortland Review, and The Southern Review, and have garnered fellowships from PEN America and The Center for Fiction. He was twice recognized with a Notable Essay in Best American Essays and twice nominated for a Pushcart Prize. Abundance is his debut novel and a People Magazine Most Anticipated Book of 2026.
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The Correspondent by Virginia Evans
Abundance by Hafeez Lakhani
The Lilac People by Milo Todd
Did You Ever Have a Family by Bill Clegg
Good People by Patmeena Sabit
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Book Gang Podcast Transcript:
Hafeez Lakhani
Hi, I'm Hafeez Lakhani and I'm the author of Abundance.
Amy’s Warm Introduction:
Hey Book Gang! I’m so proud to welcome you to this week’s conversation with Hafeez Lakhani, whose earnest literary fiction debut, Abundance, immerses us in the hopes and heartbreaks of an Indian-American family. Each member is fiercely chasing the American dream—until the matriarch’s refusal of a needed liver transplant brings their lives to a standstill.
One of the first things you’ll notice as a reader is Hafeez’s bold stylistic choice: Abundance forgoes quotation marks around dialogue. Rather than a quirk, it’s a deliberate invitation to slip into the characters’ inner worlds. If you find this style challenging, I highly recommend Shawn K. Jain’s audiobook performance, which makes the story even more accessible and moving. That is exactly how I enjoyed this story, along with a paper copy for highlighting.
In this story, at sixty, Sakeena co-owns a Dunkin’ with her husband, Ramzan, and has just been given nine months to live—unless she agrees to a transplant. Unwilling to compromise even on small lifestyle changes, she leans deeply into naseeb, the Muslim idea of destiny, determined to meet her fate on her own terms.
As we get to know each of the family’s children, we see their own versions of the American dream take shape. Adnan, for example, believes it’s found in a pair of Air Jordans—a dream complicated by the $175 price tag, out of reach for a struggling franchise owner. When his father finds counterfeit knockoffs, it sets Adnan on a path that leads to a side hustle, a lawsuit, and an ocean between him and his mother. Meanwhile, Fareen brings true Eldest Daughter energy as she faces down high-stakes business deals and the men who would love to see her fail. As Sakeena’s story takes center stage, her children’s struggles and growth reveal the deep bonds and frictions of family.
Lakhani’s writing shines brightest in the moments of emotional heart: Ramzan’s quiet anguish when a new McDonald’s threatens their family’s livelihood, or the tender moments between Sakeena and her daughter Kawal, who gently bathes and brushes her mother’s hair—echoes of the care Sakeena once received as a child.
Naseeb—an unfamiliar concept to me as an American reader—truly becomes the engine of this story. Sakeena’s faith in naseeb shapes her every decision, creating tension as she weighs her own agency against destiny. Ramzan, by contrast, sees fate as an excuse for avoiding responsibility, which adds another layer of complexity to their family dynamic.
Hafeez, a child of immigrants whose first language was not English, recalls never seeing his parents read for pleasure—there was always too much work to do. Yet, they always made space for library visits, which later fueled his storytelling and shaped the tender heart of this debut. It’s a thrill to welcome him to the Book Gang podcast to discuss this moving novel, so deeply rooted in lived experience.
If you’re new here, hi! I’m Amy Allen Clark, the voice behind the Book Gang podcast, where we celebrate debuts, backlist favorites, and under-the-radar book gems. Today, we’re kicking off our fall show season with fifteen new voices we just announced—if you missed that list, you’ll find a link to screenshot it in today’s show notes.
To celebrate, I’ve also been hard at work on our 2026 Fall Reading Guide, featuring 32 books from BIPOC writers. This list is open to all—no paywalls, no barriers—because championing these voices means making sure everyone can discover them. If you’d like to support our mission, patrons receive a beautifully designed, printable checklist of all the books featured this season. Your support helps us bring even more diverse stories and authors to the show, while keeping our main guide free for everyone.
A quick reminder: next week, we’ll be discussing The Correspondent by Virginia Evans for our monthly book club meeting. The Correspondent is a moving novel about Sybil Van Antwerp, a woman who’s made sense of her life through a lifetime of letter-writing—sometimes to people she never intended to reach. As Sybil faces letters from her past, she’s compelled to confront old wounds and the need for forgiveness. Mark your calendars for August 27th at 8 PM ET. Patrons can attend the live chat and unlock a bonus episode from today’s show, along with your signature printable. It is just $5 a month to join or you can pre-pay for the year.
Now, let’s meet today’s guest: Hafeez Lakhani was born in Hyderabad (Hyderabad
, India and raised in suburban South Florida. His fiction and essays have appeared in Crazyhorse, Exposition Review, Salt Hill, Tikkun, The Cortland Review, and The Southern Review, and he’s received fellowships from PEN America and The Center for Fiction. He’s been twice recognized with a Notable Essay in Best American Essays and twice nominated for a Pushcart Prize. Abundance is his debut novel and a People Magazine Most Anticipated Book of 2026. This novel is available on store shelves now.
If you’re enjoying the show, leaving a quick review on iTunes is one of the best ways to help others discover Book Gang—it’s free and means so much to us. And to our wonderful patrons, I’m raising a virtual cup of coffee to you in honor of today’s episode. Thank you for supporting human creators in a world turned upside down by AI.
Now, let’s get chatting!
Book Gang- Amy
Perfect. Well, welcome to the show, Hafeez I'm so excited to have you here. This has been a long time coming. I feel like you and I have been chatting for a while and I just want to set readers up that you are with one of my publishing houses that I consider one of my most beloved, which is Counterpoint Press, and one of our past guests, Milo Todd with The Lilac People, was on the show and they did such a phenomenal job with Milo's episode and just making sure that Milo felt comfortable and secure when he was talking about his historical fiction book. That I always said, whenever Counterpoint sends me a book, I'm going to read it. And luckily you are with Counterpoint, so I'm so excited to have you today.
Hafeez Lakhani
Well I feel really lucky to be here, Amy. I love the work that you're doing with the podcast and with your bookstagram.
Book Gang- Amy
Thank you. Well, I wanna start out with, you know, just for some light work here before we really dig into the work of your novel. Where are you ordering your coffee since that's such a big part of your story?
Hafeez Lakhani
Well, I'm an Nespresso drinker. I like the kind of like slightly European style. Like I mix up one long, one short. A double espresso if I'm going to like a Starbucks or something; or a long espresso. What about you?
Book Gang- Amy
Well, you know what, I only like coffee at home, although it's kind I'm kind of infamous for my Panera Sips Club, which they announced recently my unlimited drinks are no longer unlimited. So those of you that I tried to get on this hustle.
It is such a bummer. I'm like, who's counting my drinks? But apparently they are now. So there is a limit. You can get one a day. But I would go like every time I need a little pick-me-up, just drive on down and get a little bit of coffee or get a nice bubbly water at Panera. So that's where I live. And I do work there too. So it's a great place if you need to lock in for some internet time. And I find the environment there very cozy. Lots of retirees sitting there with coffees and they have those big long like family tables and I love seeing all the people. It's great for like writing and inspiration to like be around all that.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah. When I get kind of like tired of being by myself writing, I love going to a public place like a Panera or, you know, like a small coffee shop. It's nice to get a little buzz around you.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. Well, we want to talk about the story. I loved this book. I did tell you off-air, you know, my listeners know that I have been going through a really hardship time with my mother as we were in the ICU with her, and the book that I brought was your book. And Abundance is so much about the human experience. And I don't know if I would have picked that for myself at that exact moment in time, but reading this story, I think anyone who is dealing with aging parents or you know navigating this you know sandwich season of life is going to get so much out of the story and I would just love to hear how this all started for you.
Hafeez Lakhani
Sure, thank you Amy. So big picture, Abundance follows an American Muslim family of five across Miami, New York, Monaco, and Gujarat, where each member of the family is wrestling with this question of how much of our lives do we control and how much is destined for us? All while the matriarch of the family, Sakeena is deciding whether to accept a liver transplant or to let fate run its course.
And as you kind of alluded to, there was a family health emergency in my own life that kind of sparked the novel. Before that health emergency, I had written three short stories centered around this family, the Parwani family, and I didn't yet know if it could become a novel.
The stories were at different periods of time. One was from Sakeena's perspective, one was from Ramzan's perspective, one was from Adnan's perspective. And I just knew I loved writing about this family. I loved building this world. And I wanted it to be a novel, but I didn't yet know how. And then my mom was diagnosed with a life-threatening liver disease curable only by a transplant.
And my whole life, she had been an adamant believer in a Muslim concept similar to destiny. And you know, all throughout my life, it was if something was out of your control and you were upset about it, I didn't make the basketball team, she would say, Hey, if it wasn't in your naseeb, that's okay. Right? And it was a way of helping people process and kind of accepting.
And so interestingly, they said you have about nine months to live if you don't get a liver transplant. I don't want a liver transplant. And for the rest of us, and within my family of five, I'm one of three siblings. It was really interesting that the spectrum of whether people were willing to respect what she felt even if ultimately we did want her to have the transplant or like my dad was like you're crazy we need you to take this transplant. So my dad cut got all three siblings to come home and and we had about a year of just focusing on my mom's health ultimately she accepted one transplant and two years later a second transplant and she lived nine years after the first and I feel really grateful to have that time with her.
But going back to the story, after that first year of getting her to the transplant and getting her through the recovery, I came back to those three stories. And it dawned on me that a family health emergency in the present could be the way to unite those three disparate stories together into a novel and to create even more momentum going forward in the story where each of the five members of the family could have their own conflicts to resolve while this main conflict of the family health emergency needs to be resolved as well.
Book Gang- Amy
Mm-hmm. So what did this look like then when you have a short story? I've worked with a few authors that have done that. You have these little aspects to the story and then you start to build out a novel. Can you talk me through what that looked like for a draft? How long did this take you? What did it look like to sell this book? because this is your first book, it's always really exciting to hear how that debut gets landed.
Hafeez Lakhani
Sure, thank you, Amy. So I think you're aware it took me 12 years to write this book. yeah. Took me a while, but that's okay. I have no regrets. You know, alongside life and as far as setting up the book, it takes a while, right? Especially your first book. In short, I had those three short stories, and then I had the health emergency.
So I started building the health emergency and realized, wait, those three short stories are actually deep in the past of this present story that I've started writing. And so then you know you have this feeling of like, can I put a square peg into a rot hole? Is it gonna work?
And I realized that I had to only excerpt little bits from the short stories. In the end, maybe 10% of those stories made it into the novel. They ended up becoming a prequel to the novel. But that's a good thing because it sets up the world.
And then moving forward, I'm a big spreadsheet guy. So I created I started really, I'm also a big world building guy. So before I write, for every page that I write, I probably read 10 pages. And I have like many pages of notes before I'm like diving into the like prose. And then when once I dive into the prose, it just flows out because I have all these, like it's bursting, my mind is bursting with thoughts and plans. And then I break the plans.
So like you start with a plan and you sort of let it go in its own direction. so the spreadsheets were incredibly helpful because I was charting, even though the novel takes place in the present when Fareen’s 28, the twins are 26, Sakeena's about 60 we're we're seeing snippets all the way back to like when Sakeena and Ramzan first met in Rolapindi, like when they were like teenagers, right? Or they actually grew up in the same building. So they knew each other from childhood, right? So basically 60 years of time across this family. I'm sort of just charting it on a spreadsheet. Like I organized it really carefully with like birth years, what age were people at various events, like when Ramzan came to the United States, when did Sakeena come to the United States? When did they first sort of realize they had feelings for each other? When did they have the first business in Bardo, Florida that failed? When did they get the Duncan? You know, all those things. When did Fareen and Hussein date? All these little pieces that even if they only show up in the novel for one line.
I wanted the world to be carefully laid out because as you know, a novel can be first of all, it's a long project. Second of all, it took me forever to do it. So you don't want to forget like interesting threads that have sort of been already planted or mixing metaphors, but you know what I mean. Interesting seeds that have already been planted. You wanna allow those to germinate over time.
Book Gang- Amy
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, I don't think people always realize like it's basically like you're building an entire family tree, right? And you have to build the lore, the history, the things that people don't know, the secret conflicts, all of those aspects. It reminds me of a conversation that I had with Bill Clegg about Did You Ever Have a Family? And getting to see how he mapped out this like very like robust cast of characters because I think multi-generational stories they require a different level of emotional excavation but they also require knowing how all these people are going to work in a family together, right? I can think, you know, this person has eldest daughter energy, like one of your characters, and then I can see all of that playing out. You know, we all can see that in our own families.
But I think, you know, from this book being more slender in in the size of it and the scope that you're trying to do, there's so much behind the scenes that people don't realize doesn't actually go on the page.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, yeah. And to your point earlier about like taking twelve years, a writing teacher once told me that it's when you reach the end of a first draft that you realize what a book is about. Right? So that's like an oh no moment because then you're like, now that I know what it's about, I have to go back, not just like edit it in, but like bake it in, right? So there's all that of the world that, you know, like I even had all these notes about like, what were Sakeena's parents like? What were Ramzan's parents like?
You may remember from the novel it subtly mentioned that even though Sakeena is so deeply attached to her hometown of Rabobindi, both sets of grandparents actually came from Gujarati villages. So there were two kind of series of migrations in the family in Abundance. One at the grandparents' phase of like leaving these very basic, very simple villages for a small city, and sort of taking that leap of like trying to transform their lives. And then, of course, Ramzan's deep wish to come to the United States on the visa lottery to make that big transformation for his family. So that was a really intentional choice. That wasn't that they had a long history. And Rabobindi, wanted there to be this successive attempt to seek change in their lives.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, yeah. Now, stylistically you made a decision. It's gonna be like it's gonna be a hot topic here within the listeners. You did not use quotation marks. Why did you not use quotation marks?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, and thank you, Amy. It's also interesting when people ask me that, they also ask me, why didn't I italicize the words that are not in English? Right? And to me they go hand in hand. I'm a huge believer in voice and in flow.
Like I want a reader to read not quickly like rushed, but I want them to feel the pace of the language and the pace of dialogue and things like that. So to me, and this is a personal choice, I slow down when I hit quotation marks. I stop and I'm like, let me make sure I get this quote right.
I almost want the reader to be a little bit breathless when they're reading Abundance. And so that's where it's really a pacing choice where I want it to flow faster. And then the dialogue, I'm sorry, the non-italics for foreign words, it's a very similar intent where it's similar but different. I'm a huge believer that this is an American novel, not an immigrant novel.
Maybe it's not mutually exclusive, but I don't want it to be parked in this corner of like immigrant fiction, not part of like the main canon of American literature. I disagree with you. It is to me this is like at the center of our culture as Americans. And so I think it's important to recognize that the American experience is broad.
And there are so many walks of life, so many languages, so many cultures, so many foods that are gonna be part of the American experience. And so I wanted them to feel normalized, not made other. And so the same thing. I don't want the readers to pause and be like, what's this italicized word that I can't pronounce? I want them to flow right through it. And I guarantee they will, I feel strongly they will very easily understand it in context. and that wasn't a big fight with my publisher, but we had to discuss it. You know, in terms of that choice. Right? And they were behind me.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. I call it the Sally Rooney of it all. Yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, I love the same, you know, when I read Sally Rooney, same thing, you feel the flow. She doesn't use quotation marks either, right?
Book Gang- Amy
No, she doesn't. Yeah, and I think maybe she she might have been one of the earliest like writers that I read that that did do that. And you know, I sunk into the story quite easily. I actually didn't even notice the italics thing. I wouldn't even look for that. I do read on an iPad, and I will say your audiobook narrator was spectacular and helped guide me through that as well. So for those of you that can't necessarily latch on to the flow of that, I think that the audiobook narrator brought so much performance to this and like so much emotion that sometimes for me where style is a little bit different than what I'm accustomed to, that's where audiobooks can kind of come into clutch for that.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel really fortunate that Shawn K. Jain accepted the assignment. He's done a terrific job and I've received dozens and dozens and dozens of compliments for his narration.
Book Gang- Amy
Did you pick him or did the publishing house?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, I was so fortunate. Yeah. They gave me, I think, six choices. and they were careful about choosing people who could say words from the Indian diaspora. And I listened to six samples and I was like and they asked me to rank them. So I gave them my ranking and I was like, please just let me know if you can't get my number one because I really want my number one. And I was so fortunate he said yes.
Book Gang- Amy
That's amazing. Well, you sell this book. Tell me about the day that you sold it, like what, who else was involved, what happened, what transpired on that day and how you celebrated.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you. You know, it's tricky. I was so busy with life for those twelve years that it almost like was an afterthought. Like, not in a bad way, but like it was almost like, yeah, there's this book on submission, like, you know, if good news comes great, I'll be surprised. and you know, in those twelve years, my mom went through her like liver disease and passed away. which is we should talk about that because that was crazy, in terms of I had written the draft of Abundance before she passed away, and then I had to sort of reckon with like, okay, like the fiction went this way and life went this way. Like that's the way it should be. Right?
So there was something kind of meta and interesting and something for me to process around that and that was before the book had really seen any kind of a public audience. So then I was like, okay, like how do I feel about this being in the public realm?
So, anyways, back to the book being accepted. In those 12 years, I met my wife, we fell in love, got married, decided to have kids, and had three kids in three years because we were a little older when we started and we wanted to have a you know a family at least with three kids. So that we felt so fortunate, but that you can imagine life is crazy when you have three kids in three years. So like there's that, and then you know, I have a day job and that's busy.
So you know, and then my mom getting sick, passing away, you know, trying to be present for family around all those, you know, many, many, days, you know, as you know very well, right? Like there's so many moments where you're like everybody needs to come and be there. Like you don't know if it's the end or or or what, you know? So and then you wanted my kids to meet, like spend time with my mom, so all that stuff.
So it was almost like I'd forgotten that I was on submission. And then one day it's like, hey, Counterpoint Press. It was actually very sweet. They asked to have a conversation before they bought the book. And my agent was like, this is promising. Like, I can't imagine this going badly, because you'll have a nice conversation. And why would they want a conversation if they weren't really serious about it? And it was with my editor, and my editor's boss, who's also the, I think the head editor at Counterpoint.
And my agent and I were there, it was a Zoom. It was lovely. And I'll tell you one thing I remember from that conversation is my editor Dan Lopez, who's been brilliant, said, Hey, do you mind telling me from your perspective, what is this book about? And there's a line in the novel that you might remember from Jabron's perspective, and Jabron is a you know an aspiring writer, and he says his novel is about the challenging concept of home.
Right. So that's what I in the in the book, it's like the F dup concept of home. and I said, Well, that's what it's about to me. Like Abundance is about the confusing concept of home. And Dan said to him, it's about how you can never go home. And I was like, Wow, well said, Dan. Like and then, yeah, and I was like, dude, you you get this book, thank you. Like,
Book Gang- Amy
Crying
Hafeez Lakhani
And then it was all like a fun conversation from there and the very next day, you know, the official offer came in. So it was lovely. And then it's my first book. My wife is also a writer and not yet published in book form and you know, so it's a really special thing to be writing for so many years to celebrate it with your wife, with your kids. It was like really incredible. It was so great. We just I think we went out for dinner somewhere and opened a bottle of champagne and that sort of thing. But it was really just a moment of like, I didn't need to tell anybody else. It was just the five of us, like it was really sweet.
Book Gang- Amy
I love that for you. I always ask our debut novelists, like if you could give a piece of advice to someone who's going to pursue this. I mean, you, you know, did this for twelve years. Like I know that this has been like a hard fought book. And I know that many people feel discouraged by this process of rejection and going through, you know, their draft for years and years. Like will this ever happen? I'd love to hear what your experience, like what you would pass on to a debut novelist who's thinking about maybe pursuing this.
Hafeez Lakhani
Sure, thank you, Amy. You know, I'm a believer that the art of literature and the business of books are like a Venn diagram with only so much overlap. And you could interpret that as, I don't mean it to be cynical, but one could interpret that in different ways, right? One is it's not like a meritocracy where, like, hey, is your book good enough? I think that's a confusing thing for anyone who hasn't been published yet. Like, is your book good enough? Frankly, that's not a really relevant question, right? The question is: I believe that we should be writing with only ourselves as our first audience. Like, write the book that you love, right? Everyone says, and I think it's true, write the book you want to read, right? And then be okay with it if that's not right for the marketplace. That doesn't mean it like someone is saying you're not good enough. It means it's just not right for the marketplace. Right? So from from my idealistic perspective, it's like write the book you love.
Someone else could hear the same advice and say maybe write for the market. What's hot right now? Like what's selling? Romantacy, huh? Let me see if I can try that. If that's your thing and you want to try to follow the market, go ahead. That's not my way to do things. Because I'm kind of like, if you try to chase the market, by the time you get there, the trend will have changed. Right? So some writers I think will be fine like sort of thinking about like what's selling or what can I sell. and it's okay. That's your approach then I'm sure you'll publish like more quickly than I did. If you care about the art and you're like, hey, I just want to write this book that I'll be proud of for like decades to come, that's the way I went about it. And then at that point you say, okay, where where might this fit into the marketplace?
Book Gang- Amy
Always always the conundrum for sure. I agree.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, yeah.
Book Gang- Amy
Well I do think too, when it comes to writing to trends is that by the time you write it, if you think that the trend is there, the trend is gone, right? It's already done. And, you know, I'm thinking about right now like the trad wife trend. Like, please don't write any more trad wife books because that trend has expired. By the time someone gets, you know, all the stages through all the stages of writing, we often have already passed on to another trend.
It's always exciting when a trend emerges naturally, right? And all of a sudden three people have decided to write about night blindness for some reason and they all come out at the same time and you're like, okay, well that was a trend I've already missed. So I think it is much better to be writing about something also that you are passionate about, that you want to see on a bookshelf, that you would pick up or recommend to a friend. I think that's much better guidance than writing to trend.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, agreed.
Book Gang- Amy
Well, I did want to ask you a question. I just was so moved by your author's note and getting to read a little bit more about your family. And I love that you're specifically saying like this is not immigrant fiction. I will definitely not put you on a book list for that when I make a content piece.
But you did express in one section that you said as a child of immigrants whose first language was not English, you spoke a little bit about how books were not visible part of your parents' daily lives and how that background kind of comes into play in not only in your storytelling but maybe what you are trying to write to the kind of book maybe that your parents if they knew it existed could have latched onto and I think it's such an interesting thing to contemplate and to talk about and I'd love to hear about what you think maybe that added to your superpowers of storytelling.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you so much, Amy. You know, I'm so grateful to my parents for all they kind of built for me. So it's kind of this whole thing of like do as I say, not as I do, you know. So my dad I have these really fond memories, even though it's true I've never until Abundance came out, never in my entire life have I seen either of my parents read a book and that's okay. I'm not saying that as a criticism. I'm saying that actually out of like dear love for them. They were so busy providing for family and planting our roots in this country. My parents came to the United States around the age of 40, and I'm 44, so I can only imagine like what if I moved to a new country with a new language today? Would I have the bandwidth to like soak in the art. You know, like there's so many things to do, like in terms of getting yourself established. So and just especially with it not being their native language.
I think it was hard for them to access reading. and that's okay. And music and stuff like that was more accessible, right? my the the do as I say, not as I do, my dad would take us to the public library almost every Saturday as I was growing up. And I have such fond memories of that. So that's interesting. Like he was intentionally like stirring this interest in books and in literature. and just let's so we spend a couple hours in the library and just you know enjoy and check books out. So I love that. That was like I got the signal, you know.
So and then yeah, it just regarding the immigrant experience, like in so many ways, I think that you have to look ahead a little bit and say, what do I hope for the next; we all do this. It's not just an immigrant thing, like I have three kids, I don't know if you have kids.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, I have two kids, yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, so we all think about like what do I want to build for my kids that maybe I didn't even have access to. So I think that maybe in the backs of their minds my parents were like, Okay, like it's not like they want us to be sacrificing as much as they did. Like, you know, there's an old saying that has always stuck with me. It's the first generation after immigration breaks their backs working. The second generation makes money. And the third generation gets to become artists, right?
And it's a privilege to reach that phase where like you're not worried as much about let's say just putting food on the table, but you have this privilege of perspective, even if it's just in being able to enjoy art or if you're so fortunate to create art, right? So I think those were the seeds my parents were planting. Like they didn't read, but they were like, This is this would be so cool if this became a bigger part of your life.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. I have kind of a similar aspect to my story as well. My dad worked a swing shift at a factory and, you know, he had really, you know, chaotic schedule with work and he worked really hard for us so that we could have a better life. And, you know, one thing that he did for me was to take me to the library every single week, no matter what. That was like a standing agreement. My dad did read when he could, but he definitely is really enjoying retirement where he can read more.
Now. And I think about, you know, these bookstagram accounts or like all of these accounts where we're being shown like hundreds of books, right? You know, here's 30 books I read in a month. And that is essentially a privilege, right? We all can't have that kind of time, especially in the economy that we live in, the world that we live in, we are pulled in a million directions. There's also seasons of life in which we are unable to spend as much time reading. And I think of my life, my reading life as a real privilege, that it's a real privilege to read the amount that I do, to get to think critically about books and and talk about books with people is a privilege that I think my dad would have loved but didn't have the opportunity. And I think that's something that is so beautiful about your story about becoming a writer and that even though your dad and mom weren't able to spend time reading, they still wanted you to have access to that.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, absolutely. And like we talked about earlier, this is a universal story, right? It's not just applicable to immigrants. We all live vicariously through our children in certain ways.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I'm excited to get into this story a bit. You know, I know that, you know, you have spoken to it not just being an immigrant story, but I also think that none of your characters are like representing one specific aspect, right? And there's so many aspects to, you know, trying to chase the American dream and the story within the different generations, which was so interesting to me. I wanted to talk about how you wanted to resist, you know, the flattening of those experiences and really create each one as an individual experience because all of your characters are so memorable in this book. I remember specific moments and that takes something out of a writer to create.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you, Amy. you know, speaking of like flattening characters, right? There's a huge, when you come from a certain subculture, and that could be like, you know, let's say like a Jewish woman, like there's a risk that people are gonna put you into a corner or put you into a box, right? And so I was aware right from the outset that, hey, is this gonna be seen as some sort of like pan-Muslim novel? Right. And I wanted to be a few steps ahead of that.
Where I adamantly don't think anyone can write a pan-Muslim novel. There's more than a billion Muslims in this world. It would be crazy. And the traditions from one community to the next are wildly different, right? Like, and there's no right or wrong. It's just that there's differences in culture. So you know, like for example, there's a great book out there, Good People by Patmeena Sabit.
Book Gang- Amy
Yes. Mm-hmm. I read it. Mm-hmm.
Hafeez Lakhani
And yeah, I found it really interesting. The honor killing stuff was a little uncomfortable for me. I wouldn't have made some of the same choices, but I respect the work. And I respected that, you know, she similarly was like, she's gonna write about a certain Afghan American diaspora. And even there might be other Afghan Americans who are like, that's not what my life is like, but okay, I see that that's the world that you wanted to build.
So in the same way, I refuse to write on behalf of a billion people. I'm writing on behalf of five characters, right? And those five characters I take it very seriously. To make each of their identities unique. They're themselves first, and part of their identity is Muslim. And Muslim is a really complicated thing. It could be in in one person's world, it could be about faith. In another person's world, it could be about culture, right? In a third person's world, sort of related to culture. Like I know a lot of Muslims today who don't practice, but their closest friends are Muslim. I find that interesting. They adamantly don't practice. Adamantly. But, interestingly, your closest friends are from the same identity as you. Identity. There you go. Right?
So in that way I was like, let's build these five characters. They're all gonna be unique, they're all gonna have their own very specific identity. And then you know, like the joy of fiction, right? Like these identities will have to interact and there'll be conflicts and they'll there needs to be resolutions to those conflicts.
And then to your earlier point, this idea of the American dream. You know, being a child of immigrants, I I could never escape this idea of striving, right? There's striving in everything that I witnessed throughout my entire childhood, right? Like, even the simple question of like, do I spend time with the family or do I work? Right? Like just this question of always like, could I do a little bit more?
To establish myself better in this country to provide for my family, which of course is an American, like it's not limited to immigrants, right? It's an American phenomenon. So I really wanted to embody this idea of striving in nuanced ways across the family. So I really love how these five characters can be. Like for example, this question of how much of our lives do we control and how much is destined for us. I had a lot of fun, Amy, like saying, okay, with these five characters, they're all at different points in that spectrum, right? And sometimes they might even like move around a little bit.
And then let them all be part of the same family and wrestling with the same conflict. And let's see how they can try to reconcile their different perspectives. Right. And similarly for the striving, like seeking the American dream, Fareen and Adnan, both children of immigrants, both fortunate to be part of that next generation who has more access, going about their striving in extremely different ways. Right. Whereas Adnan is more comfortable breaking rules.
Fareen in some ways, well, she's a jazz trumpeter, improv, like she can break rules that way, but with the conventional thing, she wants to get her good grades, she wants to get these fancy jobs, promotions, right? So in this way, let them and that scene where they have that like sort of like verbal argument, you know, where she's like, How could you be surprised that you're in trouble with the law? Are you crazy? Like, you know, and he's like, I'm the change our grandparents are seeking. I had so much fun writing that scene of like, let them butt heads, right?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love all of those aspects of the story. And I also want to say like I cannot wait to flex that I know a little bit about naseeb now to my South Asian friends. So my best friend is South Asian. I can't wait. I almost dropped it. Like I feel like I it has to be the right dinner party conversation. Enough wine needs to transpire, but I need to like be able to be like, hey, you know, it's just the naseeb of it all. So I do want to set American readers up for that.
Hafeez Lakhani
You know what's funny, Amy, is my kids are 10, 9, and 7, and they've started using it because they've heard me at like readings and stuff. Like, you know, like my son's on a little basketball team and he didn't get to start, and we were talking about it later, it's like it wasn't in my naseeb but it's okay.
Book Gang- Amy
I know my girlfriend came over yesterday to drop off a little present with all the stuff we've been dealing with my mom and I was like, is this where I drop it? And I'm like, it's just the naseeb of it all. What can you do? Right. It's like one of those things that I cannot wait to flex.
But I do want to set everyone else up for it who doesn't know all the knowledge that I now carry in my heart. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means and why that is kind of the story's engine for this story?
Hafeez Lakhani
Sure. so naseeb translates loosely to the word destiny in English. And I'll give you an example. one line my mom used to say quite often, if something sort of didn't work out for you, she would say, “Naseeb me ne lekilate likrata to kyakar sete”, which means if it wasn't written in your naseeb, then what can you do? Right? And to hear that like once is one thing, but to hear it like throughout, you know, your entire life.
It's funny because I'm probably a little bit more like Fareen is my most autobiographical character. I am sort of on the spectrum of like, I do like to exercise like action, right? To try to like try to change things if you can, right? And so it was this perfect, like what a perfect pairing my mom and me. Like she helped me reckon with like you can try and you should try, but don't drive yourself crazy. Like at certain points you have to say it's okay, it wasn't meant to be. Right? A simple example is I had a relationship long before I met my wife where I was engaged. And even though there was a lot of like common ground in this relationship and a lot of love.
There were just these irreconcilable disagreements. and then it would just like explode and be breakups and get back together and breakups and get back together, and I was sort of stuck in this like, we should try harder. Like, we should keep trying. And it wasn't my mom, it was somebody else. But they said to me, Have you ever wondered if maybe it wasn't meant to be? And literally it was that one conversation, I was like, And then I probably thought of my mom and I was like, maybe it wasn't meant to be. Right? And it was like, great,
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
I think we're both much better off. Right? So in ways like that, those of us across all cultures, especially as Americans, like there's this culture of like, work hard, you can do it, right? And yes, we should work hard. But there's also this element we shouldn't forget, it's almost a spiritual element of like, can you accept? Can you accept what's not in your control? Right?
And so that's what I loved thinking about. and I wanted to embody that because it feels like almost in some I don't know about for you, but for me it feels a little surprising in American culture for someone to be so comfortable accepting. and I was like, I like that. I I think that level of surprise is really interesting to develop, both for like a character like Sakeena who holds on to her kind of like native spiritual culture, as well as like I think it could apply to anyone in American society.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, and I mean I do think in aspects of you know my my mom is a Christian and so a lot of the things that have transpired with her health and she's like this is God's plan this is you know the way that it's supposed to go and that we have to trust that this is you know what God wants for us and so I think you know no matter what religion you're from that maybe some aspect of you know this is the destiny of of what has been designed for me by something greater than what I can control. And yet, you know the child in me is resisting right? We're resisting what is being destined to develop over time and we would rather not latch on to some of those ideas and how generationally, you know, we perceive this very differently. It's like, well, I want to resist this. I don't want to lean in. If I lean in, I've given up. And I think that's a big aspect to these children's stories too.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, yeah. And you're bringing up an interesting point. There's a passage where Fareen, you know, she often like meditates, like, what would my mom tell me right now? Right?
And there's one passage where she's so sort of like, but my mom's argument breaks down because you have to have agency, right? You can't just accept everything, otherwise you would just like put your hands up and be like, All right, whatever life does to me, I'll take it. Right? and she's right. I mean, that like as much as we can talk about how much of our lives we control, how much is destined for us.
We actually have to exercise different decisions in different circumstances, right? and so Fareen's like calling her mom out applies in regular life. And actually, I have a friend who's a pediatric neurosurgeon who read the book and had just an incredibly sincere and strong response to it. And I loved hearing her thoughts. And then she was critical. She was like,
But this whole naseeb thing is she was like, but this whole naseeb thing, as like a physician who's saving lives, you know, she's like, this drives me crazy when patients don't do what we asked them to do. Like, you know. She's like, if you just followed the instructions, you could have like saved a life or you could have extended a life. And I'm like, I get it. And I see where especially from that profession, you want to look at us like we want to control as much as we can, right? So there's a complexity to this debate of like how much do we control, how much is destined for us, because you have to look at it, I think, from both sides, and it can't be that you're fixed on one.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, for sure. Well, a lighter aspect to this story, now that we've established that aspect, I do want to get into the coffee wars that you set up for this small business.
I don't know if I knew about like this Duncan McDonald's war that's happening with like fresh coffee and how that might put more pressure on a business. You know, I've been lucky to be adjacent to friends who have run like small franchise businesses and it's all at like all about it is like incredibly fascinating, what rules are required by headquarters, like you don't really have that much control, which is something I think that really plays out with this family, especially when, you know, McDonald's is offering a better coffee experience. So can you tell us a little bit about maybe the research or how you developed the especially the specific time where they are launching that franchise?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you. So, Amy, I grew up in this really tight-knit Muslim, American Muslim community in South Florida, where when I say tight-knit, it was like these people were my extended family. All of my friends, parents were like aunties and uncles to me. I felt like I could trust them. There was a really beautiful sharing of experiences. When people had hard times, everybody was there to help them.
You know, people lost businesses sometimes. And when people had successes, you were there to celebrate with them as well. And so in this tight-knit community, it was I'd say like on average, most people's most of my friends' parents had come to this country anywhere from like teenagers to like 40s and 50s. And almost everybody their parents had small businesses. So I knew people whose parents had Dunkin' Donuts franchises, gas stations, community stores, dry cleaners, cell phone stores. I'm probably forgetting a few businesses, but like there were all these dollar stores, small businesses. And we would like as kids, we would watch our like parents' generation go through the hard times, like some people were struggling.
And many times people I wouldn't say we're like hitting it out of the park, but like you could see that these small businesses were really doing great for these families. Like it was a way to put in the hard work to slave away. And then on the other side, like wow, people are starting to buy a bigger house or get a fancy car or something. And it was just like celebration of like, wow, you're doing great. Like we're all progressing in this country. So because I had seen the hard and the you know the benefits of small businesses, I knew 100% I wanted a small business to be at the center of Abundance.
And it just so happened that when I was a kid, my dad's friend had a Dunkin' Donuts. And I had these like really fun memories of like being taken in back once and like seeing how the donuts are made, and like, you know, sort of like, whoa, this is actually a business that somebody has to run. It's not just the donuts magically show up and I found it all really kind of fun and interesting. And so that's where the idea of the Dunkin' Donuts came. And then I actually remember this when I was probably in elementary school, McDonald's had a special where I still remember this. I might be misremembering it, but this is what I remember. They said that if the coffee doesn't taste fresh to you, they'll brew you a fresh pot, right?
Book Gang- Amy
Oh my goodness. Yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
And I remember like a lot of the other parents talking about this. They're like, this is gonna sink us. Like, you know, like they were worried. They're like, what are they doing to us? You know? And then, as you said, there are certain things that are just out of your control. So, for your listeners, in the novel, the family has this Dunkin' Donuts franchise that does not have a drive-thru. And a McDonald's opens up down the street that does have a drive-thru.
And that drive-thru is the component that really is like, no. So now people have this convenience of being able to get their coffee drive-thru and these specials where they'll brew you a fresh pot. So suddenly the business creators overnight from this like additional competition. And even though, like I said, I really love seeing the way that small businesses help people thrive, I felt like the appropriate way to approach it in the novel is to show the aspect of struggle.
Right, like those years in the book we call them the McDonald's years, those like two or three years had deep, deep, had a deep, deep impact on the three children of the family, especially. Because they witnessed their father really suffering from the uncertainty, the worry that the business was going to go under. As you know, you know, Ramzan has the car episode where like he's not okay, right? So it's important to excavate these struggles, right? For and they these apply to anybody where like there are gonna be risks and things that can really make your life much more difficult that you have no control over. And what are you gonna do? How are you gonna respond?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, and I thought that, you know, something so small, right? Like imagining that s suddenly the coffee changes at a nearby franchise could really disrupt what you're able to achieve with your business. The stress that he's under, it's magnified so much because of these small little things within a small business. And I just thought that, you know, this was so fascinating to me because I guess I had not really thought about this competition brewing. No pun intended, but there was a a bit of brewing going on. So I really, really liked that. Yeah.
Well, I wanna talk about your, you know, arcs that you created for your kids. Can we just talk a little bit about the shoes? Can we talk about how that's a catalyst? Did you want some of these Air Jordan shoes? Is this something that you achieved in your life?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you, Amy. You know, I've there's two mini autobiographical elements. First of all, I I've never dealt fake Air Jordans, so for your listeners, there's this whole thread of fake Air Jordans that Adnan kind of makes central to his life. And the two autobiographical pieces are one is I wanted like Air Jordans as a kid, and my parents were like, these are so expensive, like is it really worth it?
Right. So I was made aware of like there's a sacrifice that needs to happen if we buy these shoes. Do you really think it's worth it? So not like a guilt, but I got a few no's and and I think a few times I was fortunate enough that my parents like acquiesced and let me get some of these fancy, expensive, like very cool sneakers. And I just thought that was interesting, right? And how much as a middle class suburban teenager, like I just felt this rich intense want. And that's part of America, right? Like we part of the subculture comes in and we just feel like, hey, like this is what some people have and I want that, right?
And you're influenced by the culture, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's just like wow, like that's gonna shape people's experiences, right? like I grew up in an environment in South Florida where like there was a certain period where everybody wanted like brand name stuff, like not just shoes. I'm talking about like designer clothes and, you know, like really expensive stuff. And I kind of fell right into that. And I think as a young adult, I was like, why? Like, why did I care by having some logo branded across my chest all the time. Right. But still it's like I wanted it. Like I was very sure that I wanted it as a teenager.
So I thought that was like something really worth exploring. Especially I think it, my opinion, but for just from what I've seen, I think it impacts like children of immigrants even more than it impacts everybody else. Because it feels like this very accessible way to be like, I made it. Right?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
So yeah that's, I witnessed it, you know, all around me, like people cared about that stuff. So one was that, like wanting these shoes, and two was really interesting, I won't use any names, but a friend of a friend, a friend's cousin. I once, you know, when I was in my twenties, I worked on Wall Street for four years. So that's where some of the fine elements like that I learned that world pretty well.
And while I was working on Wall Street, you know, I'm working hard, like long hours and you know, like putting in the time and trying to make something of this opportunity. And I hear that my friend's cousin is in deep legal trouble for selling like mass quantities of fake Air Jordans in Miami. And I was like, whoa. He got himself into that kind of trouble? Like, you know, like, whoa.
And then I found it so interesting. I was like, hmm. It made perfect sense to me. I was like, okay. Like we talked about striving, right? And I was like, okay, there's gonna be people who strive in one way, like go get a graduate degree or something, you know? And they're gonna be like, I wanna sell fake care Jordans because people want them, you know?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. No, I totally get it. Yeah, mine was like Keds, so nothing like to that level. But my parents got me family, like we went to like a Family Dollar and they were like, this is essentially the same thing, right? But you're like, it's not. Like it's not the same thing. Everyone's gonna know it's not the same thing. Like I'm horrified that I have to wear these like white canvas sneakers that don't have that black or the blue Keds on the back of it.
But it's funny because there's just been like a big resurgence on TikTok with an Esprit sweatshirt that's being sold at Costco because a lot of you know people are like chasing what they didn't get when they were a kid, and they're like, Now I can go to Costco and get it for $16.99 and I can wear the Esprit sweatshirt that I didn't get when I was a kid, so I don't think that you're like ever leaves you. And it's funny what you know. Now I don't care about that stuff, I don't I don't think about that stuff, but it was all consuming when you're growing up, and I think it's more interesting when you're an adult and you're still like needing that as a validation, like as a signal to the world that you've made it because you have these specific things still in your life.
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, yeah. And I think like on a ten thousand foot level, like we have our own experiences and our vulnerabilities and these moments of like, why did I want it so bad? You know, that sort of thing. And like on a ten thousand foot level, there's something really interesting about consumerism in America. And I don't want to write a nonfiction book about consumerism. I like doing it through characters. Like, let's put this desire in the characters and let the reader wrestle with like do I relate to that? Do I think it's healthy? Like is he making good choices for himself?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah.
Hafeez Lakhani
Like that's where it's I think more fun and that's where art I think has an incredible power even over like the best nonfiction books in my opinion.
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. We want to talk about one scene in particular. That you have so many beautiful scenes with the kids navigating with their mother, whether they're traveling, they're interacting in her daily life, encouraging her through diet, which she resists, which I really appreciated because that is always the struggle, right? She's not gonna give up her white rice. She's not going to give up certain things that would potentially make her a little bit better.
But there is a really beautiful scene with Sakeena and Kawal where she's helping her get ready for the day. And it's just such a tender scene. And I think it's such an ode to caregivers, right? There are these really emotionally vulnerable aspects to being I guess doing the tasks that your mom did for you when you were little and then now having to mirror that and seeing it through your eyes as an adult. Can you talk a little bit about creating that scene?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, thank you. So back when my mom was very sick and needed that transplant, so there was about a year, and you may be aware it's in the book as well, that like you if you list yourself for a transplant, then you're assigned a MELD score over basically how sick are you.
And the people who are the sickest, literally on the doorstep of death, are the ones who are like matching for transplants. So there's like this perverse, I mean, because of the supply, right? There's a limited supply of donors. so there's this perverse thing where like you could get a transplant to save your life, but it's gonna be when you're on death's door, right? And so my mom for about a year was very sick and her MELD score was going up and up and up, and she was waiting for a match, and she was hospitalized several times.
And I just happen to have the most flexible like work life between my siblings. So and my family is, in some ways, like traditional where they would never want someone to be hospitalized without another family member there with them. So it was like who can be in the hospital with mom? And I was like, all right, I'll do it. Happy, happy to do it. So they were long, long I mean, I probably spent 50 nights of my life on a cot in Jackson Memorial Hospital. Like so many, many, many nights. And just sort of being around the setting and lovely people by the way, just amazing people working in those places, like just heroes.
So there were moments where like I had to be that caregiver, like even if you know, sometimes you have a little bit of an emergency and it might take the nurse 10, 10, 15 minutes to come or or the patient care tech. And you're like, well, I'm here, I'm gonna help, right? And there were moments where you know I had to take my mom to the bathroom, I had to help her clothe herself, I had to wipe her, when there were like you know, bathroom accidents. and it was a really surprising thing for me in my I think early 30s or about 30 years old, where again it was a privilege. It was like wow, like this is what needs to be done. I'm here, I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it like enthusiastically and not like with a smile on my face and laughing but like it felt like a duty.
And so when I went back to write I wanted to include Kaval as the kid as the sibling who was sort of most there for those types of caregiving. And I thought there was a new lovely element of it being like woman and woman and Kaval like witnessing her mother's body. And sort of like the idea that Kabbul is also the mother of one child and expecting her second. So I just thought there was something really beautiful in like Kaval as a caregiver already. And then sort of like having this interesting meditation on like she's caring for her children, her small child her small child, and one more on the way. She's again like her duty, very easily accepting her duty to care for her mother. And then this is a fun meditation as a writer to be like, wow, like this is how she took care of me when I was small and and this is like a chance to repay the favor, right?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that right now as we're in the thick of things with my mom. she even said last night, I will I will take care of you whatever you need. And I said, No, it's my turn now. Like, isn't that the greatest privilege that we get to someday take care of our parents? You know, it's just like one of those things. you know, you hope to live that long, right?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a full circle, full circle moment.
Book Gang- Amy
You hope to you hope to someday return the favors that are given to you. And it's just it's a humbling thing and it's a hard thing and it's also a very human thing. And I think this book just beautifully illustrates just that very human experience.
Hafeez Lakhani
Sure. And that's where, like I said, I care about this being an American novel, but it doesn't mean it's mutually exclusive from like the Indian or Muslim community that I come from. And I think that there's a really cool way that they come together where, you know, in American society, I feel there is this really strong focus on the self. Like move out of your parents' house, go and be independent and build a career and build a family and all these other things, right?
I admire those things. I love those things about American culture where like this strong independence, right? I've embraced it in my own life. At the same time, if you're part of a family, you have people who you've been close to your whole life.
So I was like, like, for example, when I was a kid, my grandmother, my my grandfather passed away when I was maybe eight. And so even then my grandparents lived with us. And my grandmother lived with us all the way, you know, until I was out of the house and like a young adult. So I loved this idea of like the grandparents living in the house. I grew up when I was born in India and until I was four, we lived in two apartments across the hall from each other. And I'm gonna estimate like 25 family members living in these two two-bedroom apartments. And I loved it. I have fond my earliest memories are of this like family all around me, like basically being raised by the village. All my aunts felt like my other mothers. In fact, the word in our family for aunt, there's like if the aunt is older than your mom, there's a big mother. And then Chachi is like small mother, right? And same thing for the uncles. If they're older than your father, it's like big father, small father.
And it's I love that. Like I really love that part of my identity and culture. So I was like, that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from American culture. Like we all have families and we all have this part of our lives where we're like paying it forward or paying back this care. Why not represent that in an American story also?
Book Gang- Amy
I love this. Well, Hafeez if people pick this for their book club and you could like dream of a perfect book club meeting, what would you like to see readers talking about in this book?
Hafeez Lakhani
Yeah, you know, this same idea that we've been talking about, right? Like, I had to thread a really tight needle with this novel where I cared adamantly about like I believe in this idea of the universality is in the specific.
So I had a very specific experience of this, these five characters and their identity and the culture they come from and how they embody naseeb or the way they go about their like religious practices, their attendance of their mosque and things like that. So I wanted to be an authentic story from this, let's say children of immigrants or like, you know, I don't like the word immigrant, but you know, a family who is descending from immigrants who's been in the United States for 30 plus years, right. So that's one part of the needle on threading.
And the other is like, don't call this anything but an American story. Right? Like this is a story that I hope will relate to anyone in the American culture. And so, like, how do you do both? Right? So that's what my aspiration was for this novel. And and I think I'd love for, you know, readers to discuss that and to say, it's it's so interesting, you know, you you've probably seen this too, Amy, is like when readers come to me with a response to the novel, whether it's a friend or a stranger, like or they write, you know, something online or whatever, they write me a note on my author website, which I love receiving. One woman, for example, one of the first notes I received, maybe a week or ten days after the book was out, a woman named Joanne, all I know about her name is all about her name is Joanne, she's like, I'm not an immigrant and I'm not a Muslim, but these were my people. Thank you for writing this novel.
And that meant so much to me because I felt confident that I could accomplish the like authentic story of a culture similar to what I grew up around. And I was like, I hope it it lands in terms of this like relatability.
And so that's where and I welcome, you know, if someone doesn't feel like it lands, I I think that's interesting too, right? And I'd like to hear I'd like people to discuss and say, well, in what ways did this not feel relatable?
Book Gang- Amy
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, we always end our show the same way. And before we do, Hafeez is going to be joining me behind the paywall so we can talk about the back half; the things that we don't want to spoil for readers. We just wanted to give you a really nice overview into the story, but we always end it the same way and ask our writers what they're feeling proud of, whether it's with this project or life in general.
I feel like it was naseeb that you were here. I feel like it was naseeb that drove me to pick that book up while I was sitting in the ICU with my mom. I just feel, I feel like your words were exactly what I needed to see. This was not a singular experience. I think this book also shows us how to show up for other people who were navigating this life season in such a different way. But also, this was just a wonderful, like, family drama. I will be thinking about my coffee choices moving forward at franchises in such a different way. Seriously, Hafeez this was amazing. I'm so glad that I got to talk to you, but I'd love to hear what you're feeling proud of right now.
Hafeez Lakhani
I'm just so proud of the book being in the world. You know, I know it's extremely different for my wife and for a woman in general, but it feels to me a little a little bit similar to having another child, right? I'm so proud of my three kids and I think of them as like they're out in the world, they're making their own decisions, they're having their own conversations.
And I'm so proud of this book that it's out in the world and it's you know it has its own relationship with readers that I don't touch anymore. It's the book has its relationship now and just it's a moment of great pride where okay, and it's almost like when I hear someone talk about it, or you know, if I see a review or whatever online or Goodreads, I'm like, great, good job, book. Like you're having this relationship with people, you know? It's pretty special.
Book Gang- Amy
Well, I love that. Well, Abundance is on store shelves now, so definitely pick it up and definitely join our Patreon. It is $5 a month. It keeps us independent, commercial free, and gives space to debut writers to tell their stories. Thank you so much for being here.
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